where u at w/chat?

tunisian araby w/translation

2011-01-16T18:29:00.000-08:00

(machine translated by http://3arabi.site.co.il/)

Ya jme3a svp walah kont tawa na7ki par tlphne w t2akedt enou ma fama 7ata mochkla ma bine el jaych w el 7aras eri2esi w met3awnine barcha m3a b3adhhom rabi yonsorhom rahom elkol rjel tunis w 8aliiiine 3la 9loubna

O Fri Sfb with you just tell bar phone and confirmed that what even what the problem is between the army and guard L. major and Drink collaborators with the Lord grant them victory after them, some say a man involved and Tunisia to our hearts

el7amdola byad wajh tunis godam la3rab
alah yihlika zin 5alana chibh kofar godam la3rab
m6 tamer biragm man7ibouch

Elhamdula white face Tunisia Jaddam to perish Aaraballah Zine Khalna semi Kfar Jaddam to Aarabmt Tamer despite Mnhabk

Allah ya3tikom na7aya
God bless hand

nsa la7lela bela7ram t3abi el kerech hathaka ach 3mal ben 3li
Nasa to Ahalila haraam tired penny Hamak L. Ashe work Ben Ali

NJ & beyond

2009-10-29T19:40:00.000-07:00

My chat presentation was given again, this time at the NJ Higher Ed ESL Conference in Montclair NJ. I barely changed my script, but did, and pointed out Edmodo and other new things. People however were quite interested in the blogs themselves, and all changes that have come out of them. Between this New Jersey conference, and Miranda's presentation (see below), and with other perspective, I've noticed a few changes in the landscape.

Some people are quite focused on how chatting and informal language improves more formal writing. There is a connection, as Miranda pointed out, having to do with fluency and confidence; I should keep Peter Elbow references closer at hand, as he is who I draw my inspiration from. The fluency-first movement, as applied to reading, writing, speaking, and all language skills, basically was right when it said that you have to be comfortable in your own informal writing self, before you can really crank out the structured stuff; thus it makes little sense to demand essays out of intermediate students who really don't write much of anything else. Under questioning I also said this in New Jersey: increase the amount of writing your students do. Let them compare relentlessly what they said, and what would have worked better (Community Language Learning). Informalize the setting; concentrate on the communication. Make them write so much that they never have trouble getting started.

2009-10-29T19:24:00.000-07:00

I had a discussion with Miranda Ma, following her presentation on using weblogs, which was given at SIUC and well-attended. We came around to my favorite topic, which was chatting and how the world is tending toward a lot of code-switching these days. She told me a little bit about life in Macau, and Hong Kong, where she grew up, and I was determined to save it, though a couple of days have passed already.

It's an agreed-upon fact that young people are code-switching more, and particularly in online environments, and mixing languages in ways that older people would not generally allow. We flung examples around, and at one point she said that Hong Kong people were notorious for it; later, a youtube that she shared gave some details on who did it, how, and possibly why. I haven't yet watched the youtube so I'll put it here and peruse it later, but, the upshot is that it means different things to different people, and some (most notably, the mainland Chinese) didn't care for it at all. Also, she said that clearly people don't tend to code-switch within words (at least not as a general pattern), but were more likely to code-switch within sentences or larger environments.

She herself grew up in a household where Taishanese was spoken, but her grandparents spoke Burmese, so she knew several languages from the start. Taishanese, she said, is much like Cantonese, but not quite. Yes, people who knew them both went back and forth quite a bit.

Then came my own idea, that came out of the blue, more or less. In my generation, I said, language was more closely bound by culture, so your use of language was by nature identification with culture. It seems to me that if you truly separate it from culture, then you're free to simply use the best language for the best purpose, as you would pick tools from a large assortment, picking the best one for the best job. but if you are aware of language as a kind of identification, you are more likely to reject code-switching as a pattern and show a clear preference for one language. But language isn't necessarily cultural by nature. If people are truly bi-cultural, they are more likely to simply be free to use what they wish with others who are similar. Why not?

public_timeline

2009-07-07T21:29:00.000-07:00

http://twitter.com/public_timeline

from

http://academhack.outsidethetext.com/home/2008/twitter-for-academia/

twitter stories

2009-07-07T21:15:00.000-07:00

This blog, sleepy for a while, may yet become the home of a new course of action; I am doing research on Twitter. There are some things i haven't found homes for. This weblog is as good a place as any. Here are starters:

A story about Lance Armstrong and his bicycle; apparently the bicycle was stolen, but twitterers organized and found it rather quickly.

A story about a kidnapping somewhere in the Middle East; because of a successful tweet, the kidnappers were found out and the person was freed relatively quickly. How would one track down this story? It's a challenge.

One I might be taking up, I guess!

SL & chat

2009-03-21T17:10:00.000-07:00

Adjusting to a new world, communicating by chat. Tatero Nino, SL, Dec. 2006.

articles about SL in education

TESOL 2009, Denver, CO

2009-03-21T17:01:00.000-07:00

Uncharted but breathtaking: Integrating chat into the writing class is almost ready: I've written five or six mini-articles and a script; I've almost finished the handout, and I'm contemplating what the presentation itself will look like.

I do want to say: I've learned a lot about chat; I have a lot more to learn. I've come to call it "conversational writing". I've come to see it in a different light. More on this later. I'm hoping to use this weblog for comments that come directly from the presentation. Stay tuned.

more & more, chat in the new paradigm

2009-02-27T20:26:00.001-08:00

some short things to ramble about as I get ready for my TESOL presentation, Denver, in about a month:

-just finished another writing class with chat in it; some people again handled it well and easily, while others were amazed that it was possible, that they could do it, that it happened in a writing class, etc. In general it was a class of people who had excellent grammar, excellent finding & searching skills, etc.; they'd been around.

-the class chat was marred somewhat by a difficult situation in which Firefox, on an e-mac, made it impossible to copy/paste anything into the TappedIn chat window. Tapped In in general was also difficult, with people occasionally in the CCR (comfy conf. room) and not knowing it, or seeming to be there yet not. But the inability to copy/paste url's was the most frustrating. No way out of it, either, except getting out and doing the whole thing (including log-in, and finding the URL's) in Safari.

-I've become interested in truly bilingual chats. It was pointed out to me that chats use emoticons and pictures often; and therefore, are not totally sound-based anyway; they clearly involve just seeing, reading & typing. Now here's the question though. Assuming everyone in a chat room knows two languages perfectly well. So, they begin using both frequently, mixing freely, carrying on in two languages simultaneously. Presumably they just use whatever is easier, whatever comes to their minds. Presumably they speak in confidence that either language will be understood at either end. Now: does their language fall into a kind of pattern (always using one lang. for one thing, the other for the other)? At what do you say, this is actually its own language, since it has consistent patterns?

The phenomenon of true & willing bilingualism seems to be more common and used more and more...in other words, people who know two, and just willingly use both together, at most opportunities. Some Taiwanese students were explaining to me that since all of them knew both (Taiwanese & Mandarin), they mixed freely; it wasn't like this in their parents' generation, but it was now. One admitted that he preferred one, simply because he knew it better, but participated along with the rest, using both frequently. Similarly, I ran across a Spanish-English chat online, that was based physically along Texas border towns, and this was happening; unfortunately I have lost it now, or I would study it more carefully, as I know both, in this case, and might get some insight into my own research question. I have two points here: one is that the online environment, consistently providing bilingual space which is known for that and sought out for that, becomes in itself a site for a dialect to develop & flourish, and have its own patterns. Second, the willingness to use elements of one's environment and integrate it, albeit impulsively, to the grief of one's parents, a hallmark of pioneers in the young generation who seem to be taking on this bilingualism/worldly integration as a badge that their parents of course didn't share. I'll keep my eye out for more evidence. A single article about the phenomenon, printed years ago, alone accounts for half a dozen references in a Google search for "bilingual chat;" this means both that very little has been written about it, and, that there is extreme interest in what has been written, as it has been copied and referenced far and wide. This particular article was about Chinese-English and the use of bilingual spaces to familiarize with a new culture, and interact.

-I'm determined to research SL chat a little more, since it has occurred to me that chat in conjunction with 3d movement of avatars through town space or down a street, is different by nature than chat w/out pictures or setting. So is chat in online learning environments, where often things are happening on the board, or people are listening to speaking, and carrying on a running chat simultaneously. These chats often mix media, such that the chat carries its own information independent of the other media, but occasionally crosses over or is influenced by the other media. Another thought occurs to me, which is that this kind of picture or video/chat combination could be very useful to the process of language learning, though it probably hasn't been up to now.

TESOL presentation

2009-01-28T21:55:00.000-08:00

Uncharted but breathtaking: Integrating chat into the writing classroom. Forgive me while I work it out; the following chapters are not yet linked from this homepage, because they might not yet be finished. Here's what I have:

Introduction
Chat happens- In your Facebook
-this one is kind of a wild card, out of order, possibly leading to other writing...
Kinds of chat
Chat how-to
Chat venues

another term- 086

2008-10-23T21:14:00.000-07:00

Did it again- I have two writing classes, 9 & 15 students. The one with 9 is a day ahead, so they started chat first. The advantage for them, is that there are about 9functioning computers in a lab that is supposed to have 15. So, those who really had no clue what was going on, could just walk over and watch someone who did. I explained how to copy a URL onto a chat window, but the words weren't enough. Perhaps their listening isn't as good as I thought. When they saw me do it, they felt better about it. Some still didn't get it, really.

There were three assignments: 1) bring me a url from your hometown. a travel site will do. Anything from your hometown. Mine was the homepage of Cleveland OH. 2) bring me the URL from your Practice S/R essay. This was on your weblog; it should be, anyway. 3) Bring me whatever you contributed to the EAP2 weblog; that was part of today's assignment.

As we were talking some of them were quite exuberant, using chat abbreviation left and right, calling each other names, etc. They were obviously already good friends, familiar with the medium & with each other. Others were a little tentative; they tried to do the assignment, but had some trouble. More on Mon....it's wild.

changing world

2008-10-17T07:35:00.000-07:00

Three things happened to me recently that were all worth noting, and though only one was unambiguously related to this weblog, all were worth noting in their own way, and the one involving chat had perhaps the most far-reaching consequences.

First, I noticed that a student had the entire Azar book in pdf on a thumb drive. This student was waiting for the opportunity to print as much of it as he/she could, in order to be prepared for class. The book sells for what? $90, about four times what it's worth. The copies were free; the pin drive was part of the scenery.

Second, students managed to score a huge and unwarranted score on the TOEFL without apparently turning their necks, either through a listening device, a hidden cell-phone, or a trip to the bathroom; in any case it happened more or less under my nose, and was a sophisticated and technologically innovative piece of work.

Finally, a student was posting things on blogger, and this was part of a class exercise being run by a writing assistant; the window was open where one publishes work. Up in the corner of the computer as part of the toolbar, a steady flow of 3/5 chat appeared. It was mixed with chat in Arabic. When a teacher walked by, the student minimized the window; when I was gone, he reopened Meebo and told his partners, on the other end, what was happening in the class.

In this last episode it wasn't a case of cheating; he was just engaging in a lively conversation in two different languages at once. 3/5 chat, for clarification, is Arabic written in English letters and using an occasional number or symbol that looks like an Arabic letter. It is its own chat language, very common among my students; I plan to learn more about it if possible.

By not cheating I mean that there was nothing he could possibly gain, in this instance, from being in constant communication from friends in an unknown area. But he was clearly telling them whatever was happening in the class. I could see that, because of his reference to the people whose names had no Arabic equivalent. And he was clearly able to hide what he was doing effectively, except that the conversation was so lively that I couldn't help but spot it flashing up there in the corner.

More about this later. I just wanted to recount it, while it was alive in my head. There's more going on here than meets the eye.

Second Life and language learning

2008-10-04T22:42:00.001-07:00

Interview with Thom Thibeault
Let's start out with a review. Language teachers may or may not know that Second Life is a virtual reality, a place where people can go to build any kind of environment, meet people and speak any language, in both voice and chat (right?), both in groups and in person. In order to do this they have to install SL on a computer and craft an avatar that can be of any sex or have any appearance. Can you briefly tell us some good reasons that language teachers should be willing to do this, so that they can teach languages better? What advantages does it offer to us?

Classes have a sterile, uninspiring environment, a lack of stimulus. If you want social interaction, which is what language is all about, you have to simulate it. In SL it's much easier to simulate social interaction, because you already have it. You can have dance clubs, beaches, and cafes just by finding them or going to them. You have social context; it's motivating enough to make an emotional connection. By the way, if there is something you can't find, like a certain kind of restaurant, for example, you can just make it. SL has over a million residents, 30-60,000 on at any one time, and you can always find someone to speak to in your new language. My language is German; if I want to speak German, I type it into the search, and find places that use German. Now, just like in real life, some of these places are not places you'd want to take students. Just like real life, it has brothels, it has idiots, etc. But here, a German fun zone, an ESL group, you can find people to study and talk with.

My office is another example. Here in Faner, I have no windows, no room. In SL, you can see- a wide open office, with light. I wanted the ocean, so here it is (waves lap in toward the office). I brought in some sea gulls. I can sit in my rocking chair, and then, I created a sky box. You know how sometimes you want to move a class where nobody can hear you? If you have a sky box, you can teleport up to it, then sit on a suspended cushion…the jukebox has all kinds of music, from all over the internet…now if you sit on the wall there, you could fall 400 meters, but who cares? You can have a little risk and feel the emotions of life. You can dance…

Can you briefly describe the trouble you encounter when teaching a novice to make an avatar and walk on down the road in SL? How long does it take before a person can learn to turn around and wave to someone? What is the most difficult of the skills?

You have to teach them how to get used to the environment. Many students have learned this with other programs anyway, like video games, etc. It may take a class period to make an avatar, though customizing it is irrelevant to what we do, and you have to learn the search functions especially, and how to navigate around.

Speaking of customizing avatars, the good thing is, as a teacher, when I want realia, I can have it. Because I'm a German teacher, I have German outfits; I bought them very cheaply or made them. A creative writing teacher here uses wild outfits, but that's because he wants his students to think creatively; he wants to free them. It brings an element of playfulness into the class; people have fun in classrooms, true, but classrooms are sterile, with fewer opportunities for realia. You can bring a real object to a classroom, but you're still in a classroom. Here, for example (takes us instantly to Bavaria) is a Bavarian restaurant, very authentic. People here have recreated Munich and many other places, just for fun (takes us to Munich)…now I've been in the place that this is modeled on, so it gives me a feeling of being there, right down to the pictures on the wall, which are very authentic.

I presume that you take your students directly to a place that you have reserved on Second Life. Is there any danger that they will wander off, and, if so, that they will encounter rudeness or bizarre behavior that you sometimes hear about? Do you feel responsible for what might happen to them if they do, or do you feel that this is no problem, given that they are adults? Is there any chance that unexpected calamity will befall your little villa, while you are there, or do you feel that it is a controlled environment, unlike, say, the lab here?

In my class, they follow my instruction. This island belongs to SIU- it's a virtual 16-acre island; while in class, we're always on this island. There's a danger if you leave it open, but we control access to this island; in order to come to it, you have to belong to a group. You, as an instructor, could have privileges to come here, use it, change things, etc., but your average stranger wouldn't be able to just enter. Yes, SL has what is known as griefers. The problem is, for example, when you own half an island, and the other half is open. One day a teacher who was teaching about Egypt found some very realistic pyramids, and he showed his class. But little did he realize, some very lewd stuff was right around the corner. And you might not see it, or might not notice that you have moved from a PG area to a Mature area. In Mature areas, things can be pornographic, but that doesn't mean they are. And because there are no borders, you can easily go from one area to another. Sure, your computer tells you, in a small box up in the corner, whether you are in a PG or Mature area. But you forget to look there as you're walking or flying around. You may not even know that you're computer is telling you this. . And, the first time this guy saw the pyramids, he hadn't really scouted out the neighborhood. So he didn't have a game plan for what to do if someone wandered off.

I understand that language teachers are using SL in a number of ways, and beginning to present on the ways they've developed, at places like CALICO, where there were 12 presentations on language teaching in SL this year, as opposed to 0 the year before. Can you give me an overview of some of the ways they have developed?

There's a website at, U of I I believe, that has a list of activities. One thing we do a lot is that SL will log instant messages, and drop them in your box, so that it's very easy to have an IM conversation, then review it for grammar or whatever, later, and we do this a lot. We learn from our mistakes. If you have twenty students practicing conversations, monitoring them all is a problem anyway, so this is one way we can look at what happened, and practice it again. But you can provide the environment here. In class, for example, if you want to have them order a hamburger, you have to imagine the restaurant. Here, you can find one, or make one, so that you are there. They have the conversation in chat. It's a real-time conversation; they e-mail it to me as an attachment.

In what way is the way you teach a language, German, on SL different or innovative? Can you briefly describe what you do, and the element of what you do that you consider unique?

Next semester I'm going to teach them how to give directions, so do you see this pond? (clear blue pond appears in front of avatar). On a system of bridges over the pond, where the bridges and turn in various directions, one person controls the avatar, and the other gives directions from the side of the lake. But there are four people doing it at once, so they might bump into each other. Now, in the lake, I've got piranhas (avatar steps into lake, piranhas attack, cloudy red blood appears in lake). So it adds a little emotional context to the situation. Or here's another example. In German, there is a system of directional prepositions; on for example is different depending on whether it is horizontal or vertical. Here I find it easier to just create something that will show the difference; you can actually show the difference. The social and affective aspects of language can't be emphasized enough. And, at this level, (introductory German) if they like a language, they'll continue with it, so it's especially important. Language is often sterile (not CESL I realize) but this is a way to make it come alive and show what can be done with it.

We ESL teachers have taught without blackboards, chairs or heaters, in many kinds of adverse conditions, so we're a pretty hardy bunch. But can you tell us what kind of hazards we would encounter in this new environment? For example, how is the quality of the sound, when you talk? Can you see the blackboard from the back seats, or do you not use blackboards? I understand that you may use more dialogue and less teacher-fronted classroom experience on SL (maybe), but can you give us some idea of how the day-to-day teaching situation is different?

Students do have to have the skill of controlling the camera, so we can see the avatar's face, for example. You have to be able to get around; we fly a lot here. For example, I want the web on my island, so I got this huge box (looks like large-screen tv, but has no frame; it's only the web, and it sits squarely on the island, which itself is like a diving platform in the sea, covered with Astroturf. ) You have to be able to get up near this web device in order to see it. But, once you know your way around, there's very little danger. Nobody can kill you without your permission. You can wear collars that let people control you, and people do this because they want to, but nobody can make you wear one. For example, you don't have to give your personal information to anyone. You can create a profile, and that lets people contact you, if you want. I have 14 avatars, for example, (these are called ALTS) and it's mostly because of permission levels. For example, I can make something but I'm a director, so it appears different to me than to them, and I need to see how it appears to them, so I go use this ALT, and go in and experience it as they would. I have an ALT that I use for fun, that's different from my German teacher that I'm showing you now.

Actually I don't run my entire class on SL. I have a regular class here and we go onto SL for certain activities where I need it and need its environment. I put things in there and have them go in and pick it up, for example. But that's a little different from teaching entirely online.

I have heard online teachers maintain that teacher-student contact is actually increased, online, where you must chat a lot more, but where teachers don't actually meet students f2f. Do you have any comment on that? In what way is the student-teacher relationship different?

The answer above applies to this question, really. You can make life very realistic here- for example, you can learn different poses, and get used to them, and you can dance, learn salsa and tango, for example. You can actually buy gestures, which you program into your avatar, and that will make it more realistic.

There are a number of classes that are entirely online, but this question does not relate directly to me, since I know my students personally before we ever get there. So it's not like I would talk to them more in SL than I do already. I know who they are, regardless of what they do with their avatar.

What kind of effects have you noticed related to the ambiguity of gender of the person you might actually meet and talk to on SL? I'm interested in both the social aspects of not really knowing who you might be talking to, and the language aspects. Do you notice any flattening or change of language that people actually use on SL? Also, is there any way that the virtual environment influences the way people talk? For example, does SL English have its own dialect? Or is it mostly just words that are unique to the environment?

Well, to start out with, chat on SL uses chat terms that are common everywhere: np=no problem, lol, etc. there are some that are SL-only terms, like lm=landmark, tp=teleport. So yes, you can say it's like an online dialect. With strangers, you don't know what gender they really are; somewhere I read that 60% of males who participated admitted to having female avatars at one time or another, and people have a variety of reasons to take on the persona of a female, with cybersex being only one of them. It brings up the question of how people relate to their own avatar (this is fertile ground for sociology or psychology research) and it's generally agreed that my avatar might be an idealized me, or might be an alter-ego, or he might be totally disjunct, as in, for example, I just use him. Of my fourteen, most are this last, of course. I have 7 female avatars. I use this male German-teacher one most of the time; I share an identity with him; he's a projection of myself, really. My wife is on here too, and she wanted my avatar to look like me, so it does. But people do change theirs a lot. You see lots of wild things.

With most of the things that languages do, it doesn't matter a lot, whether you know the gender of a person you're talking to; in general, if someone has a female appearance, you treat them as they appear. In some languages it does matter what gender someone is, and your knowledge of that does affect how you speak of and with someone. My feeling is that the languages will adapt; they're just being used in a different environment.

I know someone who is on here literally every minute that I am…does this person have a real life? Do they ever get off and live somewhere real? At what point does your virtual self just take over and become more real than everything else? I can't answer that. I think it does become very real; you get used to the gestures, and the way you maneuver, and you get used to the way you talk, and

I'm interested in the diversity of languages that are being taught and used in SL. Can you give me an idea of what kind of language classes there are, whether they are being given at universities or in more informal settings, and whether people are making a decent living teaching them, or being paid in Lindens and offered a room in a virtual flophouse?

The biggest is called Language Lab. There's a lot of ESL but there's also Spanish; I have a graduate student who set up classes using voice features, and creating social contexts, etc. If you wanted to tutor ESL, you could teach students anywhere, with no limitations, and that's where the world is going. I don't know what people are being paid or whether it is substantial. In general 1000 Lindens = about 4 US dollars, and it is convertible, so I think it's fair to say that though you can make money here, and walk out of SL with real money, in general the economy is very different, and it's a very freewheeling kind of place.

In general, on SL you talk to someone in two ways: local chat (anyone within 20 m can read it) or IM- private- you right click on their avatar, and IM them. So you can walk around and talk to people if you want. In general it's faster to fly. Much of SL is private; you can't go there unless invited, and it won't appear on search when you search for things. But there are freebies everywhere. You can have a free skyscraper. Or free skin; you can have a tan or any color skin. Default avatars are cartoonish, but you can get curves and shapes. Everything on SL is either modifiable or unmodifiable, transfer or no transfer, copy or no copy. Transfer means you can give it to someone, but if it's no copy, you can't give them a copy; you can give them yours but you won't have one. Modifiable basically means you can go into the programming and just change it.

We could probably say that SL offers a ray of hope to endangered languages such as Yiddish or Scottish Gaelic, whose speakers are interested in maintaining a language but isolated geographically or spread out around the world. Do you have any indication that it is being used in this way?

I haven't heard of this, but I'm sure it's possible (does a quick search for Scottish Gaelic)…there are vampire groups on here and BDSM groups of all kinds, and people with all kinds of common interests get together for all kinds of reasons. One way to find out is to search Google and use "SL" in the search; SL allows what is known as SLURLS- which you can put on a regular website; then, if you have SL, it will take you directly to that spot, and put you into that spot on SL if you want to be there. So for example one of my grad. Assistants made SLURLS and sent students off to different places in SL; two went off to a ferris wheel, which they had never seen before, and actually jumped off of it, and came back and described the experience to the class. In general, if you can imagine it, you can have it, and you can do it, but if it's not being done, it's probably because the people in real life who want to speak this language aren't aware of the possibilities of finding like-minded people on the web who want the same thing.

Let's go back to the point where you said that nobody can kill you without your permission. One teacher once recounted a story in which he had lent his avatar to a student; the student was clumsy and repeatedly bumped somebody; that person threatened him and finally killed him. How did that happen? It was my understanding that people could kill each other on SL, and that there were whole islands where that's all they do.

On the islands, it's a kind of game; you give permission to be killed, as part of playing the game. Your avatar does not have to ever give permission to be killed. Therefore you won't be killed unless you allow it.

Now I don't know what happened in the story you recounted. One possibility is that the director of the site, the person who has control, simply ejected someone. They can remove you from a site, because they have that authority. This may seem like you were killed. But I don't know what happened in that story.

about this interview...

life goes on

2008-10-02T21:59:00.001-07:00

It is possible for chat to worm its way into one's daily life, even if one is over 50. I had a recent rash of activity on Facebook; bombed my son, and thus spent a lot of time there, and occasionally checked the chat down below to see who was there; sometimes he was, and sometimes his sister was, so this was a little special, to be able to reach out and touch them once in a while. Of my 100+ Facebook friends, most are students or former students, so I got to see which of them might be online, and even talked to them a bit. Most were not afraid of the English though they might have been online hoping to chat in their own language; I have no idea how easy that would be.

In the case of Arabic-speaking students, there is still quite a bit of 3/5 chat, which is a name I use for what I see: a combination of English letters with 3's and 5's thrown in there to represent some Arabic sound that can't be made otherwise. This is a very interesting written language, kind of a cross between Arabic and English. Lots of r's and u's also; they waste no time in using short forms.

Occasionally another chat user will start out using abbreviations like r and u with me, but notice somehow that I'm not using them; eventually they stop. It's no fun being less formal than whoever you're chatting with, and, if you are chatting with an older, more formal ex-teacher, you'll gravitate toward his language rather than wait for him to gravitate toward yours. That's a general rule I'd like to codify somehow, as a principle of written chat, as well, probably, as spoken chat.

FB provides one more innovation that is attractive to me, perhaps more to me than to people in the younger generation. I don't go out looking for chats with strangers; in fact I'm uncomfortable chatting in public places like Dave's chat or elsewhere. But I love chat and take every opportunity to do it with friends. FB is cool in that at any given time only people in my network who are online are listed; the people I have listed as "online" are people I already know (probably) and have vetted in order to make them friends. Thus FB provides a steady supply of "friends" up at all hours, online, "available" for chat. Yo!

I give an interview tomorrow, with Dr. T of our own LMC, about Second Life. Don't know where to put it, maybe here. SL, after all, has a lot of chat, and represents more than anything the changing world.

Off to bed- more later.

chat assignment, cont'd

2008-09-20T20:44:00.000-07:00

Sixteen to two to one (see below), really eighteen to two to one, with the one ambivalent student perhaps representing what most truly felt, but, given the results, I had to stop and reflect. My students were telling me loudly and clearly that chat was an informal dialect that is harmful to language learners, and in effect ran counter to what they saw as their goals here. With that kind of resounding opinion, I knew I had to rethink my introduction to chat and chatting with students, which I had carefully justified pedagogically. This same group, by the way, proved to me, in chatting, that they were quite adept at it; while they would whine endlessly about writing a single paragraph, they could create chat streams that I could not keep up with, and that were fluent in several languages at once. We had not in fact chatted much before I asked them to write the essay; they were weak grammatically, and we'd spent most of our class time working on more basic issues. Yet we'd tried, and I'd explained the PROS. They knew where I stood on the issue; they also heard me, I'm sure, when I told them that I was genuinely interested in what they had to say about it and how they felt. Write what you want, I told them, just use the quotes as you were taught to do in writing class. It was a practice final.

Yet, given the chance, these were the essays they produced. Here are some possible reasons so many chose con, if in fact they were ambivalent or even pro:
1. they found it easier to construct the con arguments, given the quotes; they had heard those arguments before, and were most comfortable with familiar, comprehensible arguments. The PRO arguments were perhaps difficult to grasp, or they couldn't quite fit together three good ones;
2. in spite of actively and often chatting with friends, they couldn't conceive of it actually having useful class application; it was for fun, it was not for school, and they knew nobody could stop them from chatting no matter what they argued;
3. they genuinely noticed its ill effects, and were bothered by them, and found that easy to write about;
4. they tend to act as a group; they asked their friends, and went the way the wind was blowing, for the most part;
5. aware that it was being published, they were conscious that the ministry of education or whoever they hoped would hire them, would be able to read the essay, and decided to please what they saw as the powers that be;

Perhaps you can read into my explanations the feeling I have that in general, they are sincere; in reading the essays, you will find their real voice coming out; they are arguing in their best essays. They were not my best EAP2 class; this was a fairly typical stack of essays in terms of quality. I did correct grammar before putting them online, but I do that very minimally, and often miss things, especially in titles. I rarely change meaning; when I suspect they meant something other than what they said, I present several choices to them in hopes that they will use one and express themselves more carefully.

As a result of this stunning development, I stopped using chat directly in these classes, as I realized that I would have to understand more carefully the societal and social objections to chat that were so freely coming to the surface, before I continued. At the same time, I became so busy that I could not only not find the time to document this development, but also not even mark it carefully in my weblog, or here, until now. Busy, huh? Such is life. When you grade huge stacks of twenty, you do pop art on weekends.

Chat assignment: most students blast chat (6-2008)

2008-09-20T20:07:00.000-07:00

I looked around for the assignment itself, which I thought I had posted, but found only the wikipedia assigment, which was similar but different topic. Basically students are given quotes for and against; they are asked to decide whether in this case language learners should be encouraged or discouraged from using chat; they must use the quotes to support or as counter argument to refute which they do to various degrees of skill. As I've said, they could be choosing OPPOSED just because it is easier to construct the argument. Nevertheless a resounding majority were AGAINST. Read for yourself:

CON
1. Chat is bad, J. R.
2. Keeping the languages standard, Vicky
3. Chats are killing skills, Carolina
4. Against encouraging chat with students, EunDo
5. Internet style language, Johnny
6. Chat and writing, Fan
7. Problems of new internet words, Tez
8. Chat, Dhay
9. Chatting, GilJae
10. Chat could have fatal effects, Moon
11. Bad effect of using chat, HeeJin
12. Chat problems, Jasim
13. New languages made by children, Dodi
14. Problem of writing ability, JinShu
15. Don't use chatting in class, JiHye

PRO
16. English through chatting, Aziz
17. Benefits of chatting rooms, Ghada

BOTH
18. Chatting can be a useful method of writing, JuHye

19-20. Two students, also CON I believe, failed to put their essays online, but that's par for the course.

students & chat

2008-09-20T18:49:00.000-07:00

I was set back in late June, maybe, when I chatted with students, then gave an exercise designed to have them use sources and argue for an opinion, for or against having students chat. I was dumbfounded when virtually all students came out against; only one was clearly for. Their essays ended up in their weblogs and I will try to recover them; I am aware that they could have been against simply because it was easier to construct an argument against, or easier to understand the quotes that were against; I was also aware that virtually all chatted in their own time and at least in their own languages, on the internet.

Chat has now evolved considerably, and three months off of posting here does not represent less interest on my part, but maybe less ability to keep up with the overwhelming volume of things written about chat. To review my original hypotheses, the reasons I started this weblog, I'll put their current variants here:

the explosion in chat worldwide is caused basically by people's ability to communicate instantly online; though it is driven by convenience, it has profound effects on both how we understand language and what will happen to most of ours as we know them;

First, and perhaps most important, the relationship between oral and written language as we have always been comfortable with it has changed for good; it is no longer true that the oral language carries most of the dialects, is most changeable, or even is the "primary" language through which the other is developed;

Second, our understanding of dialect will have to encompass "places" where people meet and chat, and which are isolated from the rest of human discourse, so that they have a chance to evolve with their own dialects, in such a way that people may have trouble, at first, understanding them. I am thinking here of places like Second Life and World of Warcraft, though I know little about them, but I know that when enough chat takes place continuously in a given environment it is bound to undergo dialectical modification

Third, as teachers of language (which I am) we are obligated to teach a language in the environment in which it will be used, and that to me suggests that our students should be practicing chat skills, which are similar in a sense to teaching basic conversational English, in that students need to practice responding quickly yet appropriately under pressure, and manage the medium of expression on top of that.

More to come.

meebo chat, 6-03-

2008-06-03T13:31:00.000-07:00

[14:23] meeboguest859554: hello!
[14:23] HelpDesk Tech: how can i help you
[14:23] meeboguest859554: I'm a teacher
[14:24] meeboguest859554: and I'm wondering if you have a chat interface
[14:24] meeboguest859554: so that I can chat with my students
[14:24] meeboguest859554: without using blackboard, etc.
[14:24] HelpDesk Tech: blackboard does
[14:24] HelpDesk Tech: no, meebo is only for us
[14:24] meeboguest859554: ok, so only through blackboard?
[14:24] meeboguest859554: or other outside sources?
[14:25] HelpDesk Tech: you can set up a meebo account
[14:25] meeboguest859554: really?
[14:25] meeboguest859554: I'm interested
[14:25] HelpDesk Tech: but you have to have your own webpage to host the list
[14:25] HelpDesk Tech: you could use your mypage account
[14:25] meeboguest859554: I can do that
[14:26] meeboguest859554: how do I find Meebo?
[14:26] meeboguest859554: meebo.com?
[14:26] HelpDesk Tech: yes meebo.com
[14:26] meeboguest859554: thanks!
[14:26] meeboguest859554: take care & good luck
[14:26] meeboguest859554: I appreciate this service btw
[14:26] meeboguest859554: I like how you answered!
[14:26] HelpDesk Tech: no problem have a good one

interview #2

2008-04-10T13:52:00.000-07:00

Shortly before I left for New York City, I had another interview with my son about his chatting and his activity on the game Runescape. He has never hidden his activity from me at least as far as I know. I have made it clear that I understand that he may not be telling me everything, but that I appreciate his honesty with me about the nature of his chatting. He lets me watch it frequently.

He chats both on Runescape, as part of the game, and sometimes simultaneously on the IM, which is a name I use for AOL messenger, instant messenger, or whatever the current chat system on the computer is. On IM he has friends from camp (many of whom live 2 or more hours away) and his brother several states away. On Runescape he has mostly Runescape friends and random strangers. Chat on Runescape is vulgar and choppy, no whole sentences, no punctuation. Lots of words that are clearly chopped or changed in order to get around censors. For example, shet, g@y, etc. These words are obviously vulgar to the users and relatively easy to spot by newcomers. Also, they have some words that are unique to the game and environment, but I've lost my notes from the interview, and I don't have examples. When I asked him, though, he was easily able to tell me. One would have to get involved in the game to know what these meant, yet that was not impossible.

As far as the game itself goes, he mentioned that a certain day in September was now infamous in the game, as a day in which the wilderness was outlawed, and in which the entire economy and society was changed, for the worse. People had been killing people (that was fun), robbing them, and, since money was involved and Runescape was responsible, they did something about it. My son was himself a leader of a powerful clan, but the clan had a lot of pretenders; he had been killed by a few of them, but was still quite famous, and, according to him, disliked by some, for allowing such debauchery within his clan. In a situation where murder was common and even expected, he found himself wondering a little about ethical decisions. I couldn't help him.

I think the IM chat is a little different from the Rune chat that I mentioned. I think that it's quite common that people like him spend quite a lot of time chatting one way or the other, and readily see that each environment is different and each one calls for a different level of formality, a different vocabulary, etc. In addition, he stays completely connected to Facebook and to the latest YouTubes. This just seems to be the way life is. He sits by the computer, and Rune may absorb him for limited time, but whenever there's a lull, he goes into FB to see what is happening- goes trolling around his friends' sites, sees what photos they've posted, what movies they've dropped on each other's sites. The YouTubes are regular features. He can easily watch a YT movie, read a FB entry, and chat all at once, sometimes with Word open as he writes a paper for English class. He even claims he studies better that way, but I wouldn't know, since I rarely see him studying any other way. I could try to enforce a more rigorous approach, but exactly how would that work? It remains an open question.

influence of chat on spelling

2008-03-05T07:14:00.000-08:00

I sent the following reply to a student who is studying this and asked the questions below...I have saved it mostly for my own benefit, as it has interesting ideas that are worth pursuing.

Dear ___,

I would accuse you of trying to do your homework for you, but I actually don't think much is written on chat and spelling, and it's a very interesting subject. You are welcome to use my comments to start you out.

When we spell in any language we use basically what we hear in our head (which comes from what we hear in general), what we have read, and other influences, like L1 and analogy with similar or similar-sounding words. Recently a student wrote "something" as "sth" and I recognized chat influence on his spelling.

In the past I have read "something" spelled as "sumthing" (someone who hears a lot, but doesn't read much), and "some thing" (someone who hears and reads some, but doesn't read enough, maybe, to know when it is one word). Someone who spells it "sth" is obviously reading chat logs more than anything else.

But a native speaker would learn "something" first and then get in the habit of using "sth" as a kind of shorthand code for "something"- it is a short version for use only in informal times and it is recoverable only by people who know it is a shorthand code. One who is encountering English for the first time has no way of knowing that "sth" should be pronounce "something" and in fact is spelled "something" in formal situations. Therefore there are two different ways chat spellings can influence L2 spelling: first, a student who is exposed to both spellings, but fails to recognize the difference between formal and informal, or forgets, and uses informal chat spelling; second, student who never hears or reads the formal version, who somehow learns the meaning of "sth" (how? he/she can't look it up very easily, though it is possible...)

You can see that chat can "interfere" with acquisition in the same way that one's native language does, though it's really a matter of what the acquirer is in the habit of reading and producing- learning is an ongoing thing, and one uses what one has at one's disposal. My own student has actually read and produced "something" many times correctly but has only recently found English chat, and through that has actually gotten a better handle on basic grammar, though he would be dismayed to know that using English chat spelling on a formal paragraph would be somewhat costly in an academic environment.

Hope that helps-
Tom L.

PS I would look up the following on google search

influence on L2 spelling
learning basic spelling
problems in spelling

>Dear sir
> I really thank you for your help and for these two websites....they're great
> my professor told me that I must concentrate on one aspect only....so I chose spelling and what effect it while second language acquisition...{making chatting as one element not the only one....}
> what other elements effect spelling during L2 acquisition??
> I'm really anxious and worried because i don't know how to start..
>
(snip)
>
>I am very interested in your project, and I believe that online chatting is good for L2
>acquisition, but I recognize that it is not a simple question.
>
>The advantages are:
>It makes you used to decoding English letters and sounds quickly
>It makes you familiar with a host of basic words and makes you more fluent on the
>sentence level
>It gives you friends that will allow you to have more extensive conversations
>Some chat rooms are rather formal and provide longer, better sentences to decode
>
>The disadvantages are:
>Chat slang is a language of its own, so you might become so accustomed to it that
>you lose the boundary of formal/informal
>Chat slang tends to be associated with young and reckless elements of society and
>might mark you if your chat slang finds its way into your formal papers
>
>I wish you luck in your project. Actually I'm interested in anything you find that
>might forward these arguments and that might help your project. I hope that I've
>helped. I myself believe in chat as useful and as almost certain part of our students'
>future.
>
(snip header)

>> I am a senior student at the english departement
>> and I am working on my gruaduating project about second language acquisition
>> especially concerned with { on-line chatting .....help or hindrance for L2
>acquisition}
>> i get your E-mail from the google search and I hope you can help me
>> please reply whether you can help or not.
>> thanks alot

webheads chat 12-16-07

2008-02-28T13:08:00.001-08:00

ThomasLev joined the room.

DennisOl: Yes--and "in slang" and jargon and "elitist language"

DennisOl: Hey, Tom!

ThomasLev: hello!

DennisOl: Don't get what, Michael?

EBobB: Hi Thomas.

VanceS: Hi Tom

SvetlanaM: Hi Thomas

EBobB: I think science fiction writers uniquely understand things like ebonics and leet.

MichaelAC: OK - Leet - something to follow up as homework!

DennisOl: I think you're right, EB.

EBobB: They often create languages and terminology, that is not common, but perfectly describes what they are talking about.

DennisOl: For sure.

RitaZ apologizes for having to leave..., family awaiting, great sunny Sunday morn outside :-( and :-)

DennisOl: Years and years ago, someone I knew started a religion based on the writings of Robert Heinlein ("Stranger in a Strange Land").

EBobB: I think I see the beginning of unique language in SL.

DennisOl: The entire basis of the religion was "chering."

JeffC groks Heinlein.

EBobB: In fact, the idea that you know what SL is, makes my point.

MichaelAC: ok - nice to see you Rita

VanceS waves to Rita

SvetlanaM: bye Rita

RitaZ hugs all friends

EBobB: I am still trying to "grok"

DennisOl: a single concept that Heinleinians grokked, but that wasn't really translatable into English.

RitaZ left the room (signed off).

JeffC: Babelfish hasn't caught up to leet, but thanks to the wonders of the Internet, here's a leet speak translator: http://home.no.net/hellshl/main/translate.html

ThomasLev: wow

DennisOl: LUVIT, Jeff!

EBobB: I read SnowCrash not too long ago. Seems the author had a pretty good handle on Babel and how we communicate.

EBobB: Lots of grand thoughts in that book.

JeffC: well... on the flip side... Heinlein was considered fascistic by many.

DennisOl: Snow Crash: An Overview:

DennisOl: http://www.scholars.nus.edu.sg/cpace/scifi/ns/snowcrashov.html

VanceS: I put PWN3D into the translator and didn't get 'owned'

JeffC: there's a book called "The Forever War" by Haldeman that was an answer to his militaristic "Starship Troopers."

VanceS: what am i doing wrong?

MichaelAC: Svetalana - to go back to our original discussion - what we are doing here is what we would want outr students to do - right?

JeffC: probably nothing Vance... perhaps it's a bad translator! all of them have problems ya know!

SvetlanaM: help = h3|p in Leetspeak

MichaelAC: teaching each other

SvetlanaM: yes, Michael

DennisOl: _The Forever War_ (Wikipedia):

DennisOl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forever_War

DennisOl: Yes, Michael.

MichaelAC: we could learn to speak Leet!?

DennisOl: From my point of view, that's what this is all about.

DennisOl: Or AAVE.

DennisOl: Or Suthrun.

EBobB: So much to read, to listen to, to view....and so little time.....back to youtube.

DennisOl: Or Strine.

MichaelAC: roit

DennisOl: Or Papiamentu.

SvetlanaM: Michael - with one essential difference: this is our free time and we're not earning a living. I agree with you, Michael. But this discussion is one removed from the real-world!

DennisOl: Or VolapÃ¼k.

SvetlanaM: Michael, we are learning here, from each other. A community of practice.

MichaelAC: but need it be Svetlana? (I'm not being paid for being here)

DennisOl waits for Sveta's response

SvetlanaM: Right- but we have paying jobs in the real world. This is a luxury. Oh, I'm getting into hot water here - but I'll persevere.

MichaelAC: but being here has benefits for my paid work

EBobB: Maybe teachers should give teaching away for free, and be paid to learn.

SvetlanaM: Yes,

DennisOl: Sure. Why not, EB?

EBobB: It would certainly be an interesting change.

DennisOl: But how would society at large deal with such a subversive and revolutionary stance?

EBobB: What would happen if we paid kids to learn.

MichaelAC: ha hah ha ha

SvetlanaM: Getting back to the original discussion, I just question what's really been achieved. I agree that we're learning and that this is 'real' learning.

DennisOl: Why they would learn . . . in spades.

EBobB: Oh, no doubt they would lock us all away.

DennisOl: And play "dummy" games for fun.

ClaireB joined the room.

ThomasLev: or, make people administration on the way in, and let them teach only if they survive it

EBobB: and then Che Guevere would free us and we would be given Cuba, as home base.

MichaelAC: listening to Svetlana..

ThomasLev: Hi Claire!

DennisOl: And of course they would lock us all away--either literally or figuratively.

MichaelAC: Hi Claire

SvetlanaM: But will they learn the English for their university degrees and qualifications?

JeffC: spades? dummy games? are there other bridge players here besides me?

DennisOl: Hey, Claire.

ClaireB left the room (signed off).

DennisOl: I was speaking figuratively, Jeff, not in terms of bridge.

ClaireB joined the room.

MichaelAC: S - if it was seen to be effective yes they would

SvetlanaM: They have to pass the exams, get the grades. They need the f2f classrooms for that, in my opinion.

DennisOl: Hi again, Claire!

ClaireB: hi guys

ThomasLev: wb

DennisOl: "They has to pay they dues."

EBobB: What is a f2f classroom....does that only occur in a educational setting.

JeffC: I know Dennis, but as resident wiseguy and tapped in's class clown, i couldn't resist.

MichaelAC: really Svetlana? Do they really need classrooms?

DennisOl: hee hee hee

EBobB: I think we need to really think what f2f means.

EBobB: SL is going to blur f2f to the point that it is pretty much a mute term.

DennisOl: I think F2F is a construct favored by bean counters.

SvetlanaM: *still* need the f2f classrooms. Michael. It's just a question that's been bugging me for years now. Yes, I think they do need f2f classrooms, or online equivalents.

EBobB: Then we will start talking about t2t....

EBobB: Touch 2 touch.

DennisOl: mind to mind

EBobB: Knee 2 knee.

DennisOl: thought to thought

EBobB: m2m.....I really like that.

DennisOl: neuron-firing to neuron-firing

JeffC: I'm always amazed by teachers and students who argue that they need "personal contact" in disparaging online learning... whereas with virtual you really get more interaction between students, and with instructors than in standard f2f courses.

MichaelAC: i agree Jeff - we know that

DennisOl: Agreed, Jeff.

VanceS on phone

DennisOl: BUT you have to work much harder--at least initially--to keep the interpersonal interactions going online.

EBobB: is vance p2p?

DennisOl: hee hee hee

EBobB: phone 2 phone.

DennisOl: I'll be back in a few minutes . . .

EBobB: Ok, then.....I guess this would be a good time to go make some coffee....

EBobB: brb....

ClaireB: what are we talking about?

ClaireB: coffee is always good

JeffC: vernacular

JeffC: i think

MichaelAC: so many things Claire! Who can summarise?

ClaireB: I don't see why people feel that they have to compare f2f with computer interaction. it's not better or worse - just different

ClaireB: IMHO

SvetlanaM agrees with Claire

MichaelAC: Thanks for a great discussion everyone. It's getting late here so I might depart...

MichaelAC: Good night from Australia!

ThomasLev: good night!

VanceS: night, still on phone

SvetlanaM: See ya, Michael

MichaelAC: Bye all!

MichaelAC left the room (signed off).
...
...

DennisOl: Re the earlier discussion, I remember when--during the seventies, I think--there was a blizzard of ESL/EFL methods.

DennisOl: I've just started to make them, Nina.

NinaTL: That's when I was getting my master's

NinaTL: suggestopedia and CLL and all that

ThomasLev: silent way

DennisOl: When I started teaching, I was REQUIRED to do audiolingual drills for an hour a day in each of my classes.

NinaTL: yep

NinaTL: I started with the AL method also, over in France

ClaireB: me too

NinaTL: The funny thing was that we had tapes and little tape players

ThomasLev: most teachers today are AL survivors

DennisOl: Yes--and the Lozanov Method and the Situational Approach and later the Direct Method and later still strict-constructionist Collaborative Learning.

NinaTL: but they had no reverse function

DennisOl: and much more.

ClaireB: I'm older than you; I had reel-to=reel players

VanceS remembers the dear old AL approach

NinaTL: oh my Claire you are old (just kidding)

DennisOl: I remember those, Claire. I had them, too.

ClaireB: yes indeed i am

ThomasLev: r2r?

NinaTL: So I couldn't let the students listen more than once! haha. It was absurd.

ClaireB: lol tom

DennisOl: And what happened was that this one or that one would say 'The ABC Method is the only one that makes sense."

EBobB: Im back.

ThomasLev: wb

NinaTL: Hi, EBob

ClaireB: there is a great article in tesol quarterly called "the tyranny of methods"

EBobB: Went to make coffee and had to change lightbulbs.

NinaTL: Actually, I myself learned French via the AL method

ClaireB: early 80s, by Mark Clarke

DennisOl: But later, people would say, in response, "Maybe. But I follow the Eclectic Approach."

NinaTL: I think it worked pretty well!

ChristenZ joined the room.

DennisOl: They ALL worked pretty well.

NinaTL: Of course I supplemented it with trips and later 3 years in France

DennisOl: Because there are many ways to learn.

ThomasLev: Hi Christen

ClaireB: but krashen said that if one says that one is an eclectic, it just means unprincipled

EBobB: I supposedly learned German the AL way, but I really learned German in a bar and from a German girlfriend....immersive?

VanceS: my wife can say Quel est le date de la fete nacionale de France?

DennisOl: All those methodological breakthroughs offered insights into learning, but they weren't the ONLY WAY to learn . . . or teach.

NinaTL: The thing that amazes me is that we have completely thrown out oral drilling. I wonder if that is really a good idea--to eliminate it entirely.

VanceS: we joke about it a lot

ThomasLev: utililtarian is a principle

DennisOl: No, I don't think so, Nina. It's actually very effective--but it's not the only way.

ClaireB: they all have advantages as well as drawbacks

DennisOl: And "backwards build-up" is a terrific way to work with pronunciation and intonation.

DennisOl: Hear, hear, Claire.

ClaireB: i teach the cute little freshman about methods

ClaireB: freshmen

NinaTL: We are presently engaged in a self-study at my institute and they want to know what methods we use. I found this question extremely difficult to answer.

DennisOl: Yes, the immersion approach definitely works . . . but it isn't quick.

NinaTL: I don't even know what methods I use!

NinaTL: I like backwards buildup also

ClaireB: nina, just tell them communicative because it is now the gospel of the land

ChristenZ left the room.

EBobB: Dennis, is immersion really any slower than other types.

DennisOl: A book editor friend of mine always says, "You can have it good, you can have it quick, or you can have it cheap. Pick two."

NinaTL: Well when I looked up communicative it had some characteristics that don't describe what I do--like not teaching grammar explicitly, I think

DennisOl: Yes, EB, it's definitely slower--because true immersion is unstructured.

ClaireB: but does that apply to language learning?

ThomasLev: Direct. You present stuff, you get them to use it, then ya test it

DennisOl: Yes, I think so, Claire.

EBobB: But doesn't structured close a lot of doors to communication?

EBobB: and does it really teach communication or structure of the language.

DennisOl: Yes, but it imposes artificial order into what is essentially a chaotic process.

NinaTL: The problem with imemrsion is that accuracy gets ignored in the haste to function

VanceS: that's a problem only if you're testing accuracy

NinaTL: I am a big stickler for correct

DennisOl: In true immersion, it doesn't, but communication and accuracy are not presumed to happen at the same time.

ThomasLev: if that's happening, then it's more communicative

EBobB: it almost sounds like adherence to the rules is of more value than gaining real understanding of others.

ThomasLev: there

NinaTL: Well, I know lots of immigrants who've been here for years and their English is fossilized and wrong

DennisOl: And that's precisely why education gets so straight-jackety.

EBobB: I am not a language teacher so I can ask these questions.

DennisOl: Yes, of course.

ThomasLev: oops...is a necessity of fitting into a classroom dynamic

DennisOl: (to both Nina and EB)

NinaTL: Like my brother- and sister-in-law, who always say things like " a couple two..."

EBobB: Nina, can the immigrants get along?

VanceS: if you want to communicate or correct a fossilizaton problem

ThomasLev: students need grades, teachers need a paycheck, etc.

ClaireB: but is just getting along the real goal?

VanceS: the remedy is lots of real language modeling

DennisOl: Hear, hear, Tom and Vance.

DennisOl: No, of course it isn't.

ThomasLev: but communication requires a certain amount of accuracy also

EBobB: Back to teachers getting paid for something, I am not sure they can do.

DennisOl: (getting along isn't the real goal)

NinaTL: Yes and no, EBob. When they need anything done in writing, they come to me.

ClaireB: in some situtations, just getting along **is** the main goal,

DennisOl: The fly in the ointment, Claire and Tom, is that there are different kinds of communication.

VanceS: but communication and feedback loops will correct language if the student is receptive

ClaireB: like for tourists

DennisOl: Different levels of communication.

NinaTL: This is also true of my dear husband, who learned the same way. But he reads competently, which they can't

VanceS: if the student is not receptive then you're probably doing damage affectively by forcing accuracy

NinaTL: There was a difference in education level though; he attended university and is a voracious reader in both Greek and English, whereas his sister and her husband just finished elementary school in Greece.

ClaireB: in some languages, i am thrilled if I can just get along

DennisOl: Using English for Academic Purposes is NOT the same as using English as a tourist. (And of course, we could be referring to Urdu or Papiamentu as well as English.)

NinaTL: Yes, of course

EBobB: Heck, I am just glad to be able to distinguish between the bathroom and the banjo.

DennisOl: And that's my point, too, Claire. There are different types and degrees of "just getting along."

NinaTL: And I think we would all agree that accuracy counts for nothing if the student cannot communicate

EBobB: Took me forever to find out what the WC was.

ThomasLev: thank you for distinguishing those two, Bob

DennisOl: Hear, hear, Nina.

EBobB: YW.

VanceS: benjo is bathroom in japanese so I can see teh mixup eBob

NinaTL: On the other hand, communication is necessarily affected by inaccuracy

ClaireB: otherwise, pity the poor banjo

EBobB: Banjo in Spanish....is toilet.

ThomasLev: no wonder it sounded twangy for a while

DennisOl: LUVIT, Claire!

DennisOl: No, it's baÃ±o, EB.

EBobB: Actually it is spelled different, but I dont think thats on my keyboard.

EBobB: Right Dennis.

ThomasLev: had some trouble tuning the g-string

NinaTL: And native speakers' impression of NNSs can also be adversely affected

DennisOl: The "j" and the "Ã±" are two entirely different sounds.

VanceS: so it's L2 interference that's causing people to use eBob's banjo?

DennisOl: ROTFL, Vance!

NinaTL: haha

EBobB: Thats the reason, I leave my banjo in the case.

DennisOl: The question is, what KIND of interference?

VanceS: could be why people sing in bathrooms too

EBobB: especially if there are a lot of poor spanish speakers in the audience/

DennisOl: hee hee hee

NinaTL: jiji

DennisOl: kha kha kha

EBobB: eeeehahhh.

ThomasLev: take your pick, so to speak

ClaireB: lololol

DennisOl: hÃ¶ hÃ¶ hÃ¶

NinaTL: very good, Tom

EBobB: hohoho.

NinaTL: Who laughs like that, Dennis?

EBobB: Santa.

NinaTL: heu heu?

DennisOl: I don't know. Maybe certain Scandihoovians.

ClaireB: it must be the silly season

NinaTL: I think so

DennisOl: heu heu: LUVIT!

EBobB: Unless, Santa is in New Zealand, where he says " Ha ha ha."

DennisOl: Now whatever would you have THAT idea, Clairinha?

DennisOl: I don't think Santa would laugh with "hai hai hai" in Japan, though.

NinaTL: I have to announce that my proposal for TESOL was turned down yesterday. :-(

DennisOl: Or with "hao hao hao" in China.

NinaTL: I hope to resubmit to the EV

DennisOl: The EVO is better anyway, Nina.

ClaireB: yes, just do it in one of the fairs

NinaTL: Yes, I am sure that's true

NinaTL: Actually I had a TESOL dream last night, I just remembered

DennisOl: Oops: "Now whatever would give you THAT idea, Clairinha?"

ClaireB: there isn't much rhyme or reason as to what gets accepted at tesol, in my opinion

NinaTL: I went to TESOL in NY and somehow did not attend any sessions and even did not go to the EV at all

NinaTL: God knows what I was doing there

ClaireB: hanging out with us

ThomasLev: that happened to me one TESOL

NinaTL: Then it was over and I realized

NinaTL: Truly, Tom? Mine was just a stress dream!

DennisOl: You were probably doing what a lot of convention-goers do: networking and seeing the sites.

DennisOl: sights

ThomasLev: it's like a classroom dream, first day of teaching

NinaTL: haha Claire, probably right

DennisOl: Oh, yeah, Tom.

EBobB: I went to TESOL in San Antonio and met all the great instructors and all the important people.

ThomasLev: maybe it was the year i lost my wallet

NinaTL: I have never seen sights

DennisOl: And that, to my mind, is what's really important at conventions like TESOL, EB.

NinaTL: Well I have only been to a couple of TESOL conventions

NinaTL: Seattle was the first one where I had never been to the city before

ClaireB: i don't know if I'm going to tesol this year, and I may not know for months

NinaTL: I really wanted to do a tour but didn't

NinaTL: There was no time I wanted to be away from the convention!

DennisOl: I've been to lots of them, Nina, and the first several years I wore myself out going to as many presentations and plenaries and events as I could work in.

EBobB: Well, you can probably tour the same city in second life anyway.

DennisOl: Later, I realized that networking was actually more beneficial--both in the short run and in the long run.

NinaTL: Last year I attended almost no sessions but hung around the EV, which was very educational for me, since I am still such a newbie

DennisOl: I can understand that, Nina.

ClaireB: the ev is where it's all happening

NinaTL :-)

DennisOl: Definitely, Claire.

NinaTL: Maybe not all but what is of interest to us

ClaireB: but for me, call-is = tesol

DennisOl: I remember doing an EV session years and years ago with Rong-Chang Li.

NinaTL: Actually I never cracked my program book at all last year

ClaireB: oh, was there a program book???

NinaTL: That is how I managed to miss Daf and Tere's presentation on BaW

DennisOl: It was about CU-See Me. Does anyone remember CU-See Me?

VanceS: I think the networking is the most important part of conventions

ClaireB: yes, i definitely remember cuseeme

NinaTL: It was certainly the most fun!

DennisOl: Hear, hear, Vance. My point exactly.

VanceS: I remember cu-see-me

ClaireB: it evolved into ivisit

DennisOl: Yep.

NinaTL: late rotfl claire

DennisOl: I still have two or three rudimentary webcams that I used with Cu-SeeMe.

NinaTL: I don't remember cu see me - somebody pls explain

EBobB: well, it is time for me to move on....I have a list of chores to complete today.

ClaireB: video teleconferencing with webcams, nina

NinaTL: Well have a good day EBob

EBobB: Happy Holidays to all of you,, my friends....

ClaireB: but in those days, it wasn't called that

ThomasLev: i also have to go

ClaireB: happy holidays!

EBobB: I look forward to seeing you all in the new year.

DennisOl: To you, too, EB!

NinaTL: okay, I am still clueless about that--no webcam

ThomasLev: thanks!

ClaireB: bye guys

NinaTL: maybe I should buy myself one for Xmas

ClaireB: yes you should

DennisOl: Are you leaving, Claire?

NinaTL: Bye Tom

DennisOl: Yes, do, Nina.

EBobB: I am hosting the Knowplace 2nd annual (s)Knowfest this weekend at http://knowplace.ca.

VanceS: you're going scarce till after new years eBob?

ClaireB: no, but some people are

ThomasLev left the room (signed off).

2007.12.16 06:10:44 Signoff

articles

2008-02-01T21:03:00.000-08:00

Reynard, R. (2008, Jan.). Tips for using chat as an instructional tool. T.H.E. Journal. Accessed 2-08. http://www.thejournal.com/articles/21837.

2008-01-27T20:46:00.000-08:00

I was talking with a student about his chatting habits the other day. He's from Gujarat, India, and mentioned working for a media company that translated a newspaper into many of the Indian languages. He was, therefore, familiar with them all, and was able to tell me: yes, Indian young people use English language letters, but communicate in their own language (in his case, Gujarati). They could probably read each other's notes to each other as much of the language shares common spellings etc., but, the older generation, being less fluent in English in general, would probably not understand. This kind of language is a product of several circumstances: 1) many Indian students are abroad; 2) many have internet access and time to talk to each other and to friends back home; 3) though some may be able to get Hindi script on their computers, many don't, so it's easier to use English letters; 4) the more computer literate they are, the more likely they are to be able to read the English letters anyway.

It's not really a new language that is born with their chatting; at least not until they spend enough time doing this to change what we now know as Gujarati. But I would like to know if that has happened, and, if so, when, and/or with what languages.

TESOL 2008

2007-11-06T14:37:00.000-08:00

In this lonely, out-of-the-way blog, I'll announce my success in getting into TESOL 2008, New York City, early April. The abstract and session description are below.

Demonstration
Writing Interest Section

Times are yet to be announced; TESOL this year is not on Wednesday, but is stretching a little into Saturday, so that more practitioners in the NYC area can attend.

Why is it here? I've always maintained here that the world is going toward chat, toward more writing, toward a situation where writing fluency will be to most people like oral fluency is today- a gateway to more interaction, and more successful interaction. I will develop this idea in a writing supplement to this presentation. I have to stare at it a while to get wound up to actually present it though. And I have to remember- as a demonstration, it's about how to teach it- not why, or what writing fluency is...

Teaching writing in online and paper worlds

2007-11-06T14:31:00.000-08:00

Abstract
Whereas the traditional writing class has paper products as its goal, classes which integrate online publication have new skills to master, and ongoing electronic audiences to adjust to. This demonstration provides strategies for teaching toward both traditional paper expectations and online environments simultaneously, expanding the concept of writing fluency.

Session description
Decades ago, communicative methodologies challenged traditional teaching with the assertion that fluency in real-world conversational situations is essential to the language learner, and teachable in the classroom context. Today, connectivism (Siemens 2003) asserts that ability to find and use information and resources online, ability to adapt to new environments quickly, and ability to find and join appropriate networks online are increasingly important elements of learning, functioning and being fluent in the modern world. Writing teachers may be caught off guard as they realize that the traditional essay-writing skills that they were prepared to teach may not be enough, and in fact may pale in comparison to the writing skills their students have to master, upon entering a world where most business, not to mention social activity, will occur in online environments. This new world will demand skills that the teacher may not even have; let alone be prepared to teach in the standard writing class hour. This demonstration takes on an ambitious definition of writing fluency (Leverett 2007), showing teaching strategies for, and methods of integrating online publication and online skill mastery into a writing curriculum, while not abandoning, or even backing down from traditional essay-writing objectives. In fact, the online world, with its informality and enthusiasm, can actually be exploited by the informed teacher in the service of teaching important traditional writing skills; the presenter will show ways of riding the high waves of student interest in online interaction, in the service of increasing students' writing fluency and skills, while at the same time making those students more prepared for the writing-intensive world they are about to enter and function in.

articles

2007-05-17T06:00:00.000-07:00

Douglas, L. (2007, Mar. 25). Chatroom slang irks teachers, Jamaica Observer. http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20070324T210000-0500_120831_OBS_CHAT_ROOM_SLANG_IN_SCHOOL_ESSAYS_IRKS_TEACHERS.asp. Accessed 5-07.

Reuters (2007, Apr. 26). Report: Text messaging harms written language. CNN.Com, Technology. http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/04/26/ireland.text.message.reut/index.html. Accessed 5-07.

Clark, T. (2003, Apr. 4). Japan's generation of computer refuseniks. Japan Media Review. http://www.ojr.org/japan/wireless/1047257047.php. Accessed 5-07.

This last article impressed me most, perhaps because it shows how quickly a culture, more advanced than ours, can turn from things we consider everyday, given, and standard, such as typing skills (or using Google well). This article came up in my classes and I asked my students about it. I learned several things which may or may not be true.

-Text typing is usually done with two thumbs. There are different styles. Some cell phones today have entire keyboards that are typed just as ours is- a kind of halfway between laptop and mobile. These are still evolving and depend partly on what you are willing to pay and what you need.

-Although the cell phones in this article are quite limited in terms of the types of characters they were able to produce and the quality of websites they were able to receive, this was a temporary condition that is now probably corrected.

I have a lot to say about this, but it will wait for now.

more updates

2006-12-01T22:30:00.000-08:00

I thought that, rather than collect lots of new information, which there is plenty of time for, I'd just ruminate on what I"ve got.

-Arabic speakers using English letters. Because I'm in contact with Arabic speakers every day, and they know I'm interested in this, they've been sharing a little. A story I like is that of using the 6 as a kind of accent mark. They say, though, that computers more often carry Arabic now. So, as a language, it may be fading. These could be temporary, written, informal but vibrant chat languages. Dialects?

-the unusual visitors, whose chat is a fourteen-page post. I asked a student from Cote d'Ivoire, who says that "Ng" and "Bumsky" are possibly from central Africa (Congo/Angola)...but I have found that randomly putting some of the words into Google gives me eulogies to Nigerian clerics. The Ng I also take as a possible clue for Nigerian (I had originally guessed Hausa-Fulani, not knowing either, or much in general about any African language)...the student promised to look into it.

The interesting thing about this conversation is that these two actually intersperse English phrases into their heated discussion. Yet they are totally oblivious to all English that is directed at them, including polite questions about whether they need help with anything. As if their stock English phrases have some meaning in their own language, yet don't offer them any real help with real English in their environment. Interesting.

Such is chat. Like different kinds of animals in the wilderness, sometimes. When the dog says "meow," the bird says, what are you doing, speaking a foreign language?

updates - Spanish - Rune

2006-11-24T20:15:00.000-08:00

updates on some running questions:

SPANISH CHAT:

A friend verifies that chat is common among Spanish-speaking youth; that lots of English words are mixed in; that therefore there is a vibrant half-English half-Spanish variant that is especially common among American Hispanics. The interesting thing is that online, it doesn't really matter where someone is geographically. In other words, it is possible for people who have very little contact with English otherwise, to participate in these chats...he mentioned a CNN news clip about texting, which I have been unable to find, which mentioned that parents were concerned because they had no idea what their kids were saying to each other. A genuine fear, I'd say. This is at the heart of my question: is another language in fact forming here? It's an open question.

RUNE- pwn/pown/pawn

Noah mentioned this word as a new word formed in Rune, or at least seen there frequently. Family visitors mentioned that this word was common to World of Warcraft; and had a lot of play on nighttime television; was actually entering mainstream culture, though it definitely started in gaming. The pwn variant is actually a mistyping, or so they claimed, that just got picked up and supported by the system. Interesting.

unusual visitors- 10-05

2006-11-19T20:13:00.000-08:00

One of the more unusual webheads chats- Tapped In, Oct. 2005

2005.10.09 05:43:53 ThomasLev joined the room.
2005.10.09 05:43:57 DavidWe: Hi, Thomas. Welcome
2005.10.09 05:44:02 LeanneMM: Hi Tom
2005.10.09 05:44:11 ThomasLev: Hello!
2005.10.09 05:44:14 DavidWe: worst, wurst
2005.10.09 05:44:24 DavidWe plays the NPR puzzle on the air, in TappedIn
2005.10.09 05:44:31 DavidWe . o O ( homophones )
2005.10.09 05:44:51 RobertWB: Phone home.
2005.10.09 05:44:51 BumskyGst3 joined the room.
2005.10.09 05:45:01 NgGst6: hello bum bum
2005.10.09 05:45:08 BumskyGst3: yah, how now?
2005.10.09 05:45:11 DavidWe waves to the guests
2005.10.09 05:45:13 NgGst6: been waiting for ya
2005.10.09 05:45:18 DavidWe: Can we help you folks with anything?
2005.10.09 05:45:27 NgGst6: i cho ya na ibo ka ona oyibo?
2005.10.09 05:45:30 BumskyGst3: My dear, u just starve ur bros.no wan make we know how u dey
2005.10.09 05:45:41 DavidWe: ??
2005.10.09 05:45:45 DavidWe: Got me!
2005.10.09 05:45:46 BumskyGst3: Acho m ya na ibo biko
2005.10.09 05:45:56 NgGst6: ngwa nu
2005.10.09 05:46:15 BumskyGst3: kedu kwanu ka i melu biko?
2005.10.09 05:46:22 NgGst6: achikwa na ochi ma ha juwa gi ma o turkey ka i na asu
2005.10.09 05:46:24 DavidWe wonders what language THIS is
2005.10.09 05:46:26 RobertWB: Is there a linguist in the house?
2005.10.09 05:46:28 DavidWe smiles
2005.10.09 05:46:32 NgGst6: a dim mma
2005.10.09 05:46:32 DavidWe . o O ( or in Texas )
2005.10.09 05:46:33 LeanneMM looks for Jeff
2005.10.09 05:46:43 AnnaK: ???
2005.10.09 05:46:48 SedatA: ????
2005.10.09 05:46:51 NgGst6: mana o oru kam kana acho
2005.10.09 05:46:52 DavidWe: Folks, you might want to take this conversation elsewhere?
2005.10.09 05:47:02 DavidWe . o O ( Ng, Ngozi, Bumsky )
2005.10.09 05:47:07 SedatA: also there is a word as Turkey
2005.10.09 05:47:10 RobertWB: Or we could take ours elsewhere
2005.10.09 05:47:17 SedatA: in their conversation
2005.10.09 05:47:20 DavidWe: What word, Sedat?
2005.10.09 05:47:28 BumskyGst3: Kedu ka isi kwanu e settle down....
2005.10.09 05:47:32 Maggi: Turkey
2005.10.09 05:47:33 LeanneMM: I saw it Sedat
2005.10.09 05:47:34 SedatA: in NgGst words
2005.10.09 05:47:37 DavidWe smiles
2005.10.09 05:47:43 LeeB: Sedat, I had only read article two right then.. and speedily!
2005.10.09 05:47:48 SedatA: ok
2005.10.09 05:47:57 LeanneMM admires Lee's speedreading
2005.10.09 05:48:05 SedatA: please read the first one especially
2005.10.09 05:48:08 DavidWe: She has more light than you do, Leanne
2005.10.09 05:48:09 RobertWB: spdrding.
2005.10.09 05:48:13 NgGst6: o diro ofele mana m ka ejisi ike
2005.10.09 05:48:15 LeanneMM: I'm sure!
2005.10.09 05:48:19 SedatA: which compares the Nazi and Ottoman Empire
2005.10.09 05:48:33 LeeB: learned that in getting my teaching certificate.... or perfected it!
2005.10.09 05:48:38 NgGst6: line i sim gote dikwa oke onu
2005.10.09 05:48:51 LeeB: I am half way through now
2005.10.09 05:48:52 LeanneMM wonders if EBob remembers the old advertisements in comic books that say u cn gt a gd jb...
2005.10.09 05:49:08 RobertWB: ys I do
2005.10.09 05:49:12 BumskyGst3: Emeka si m kene gi. o no ebe a. Kedu ife ji zi gi igota line.
2005.10.09 05:49:13 DavidWe will be back in a couple of minutes
2005.10.09 05:49:14 LeanneMM: hehehe Bob
2005.10.09 05:49:17 DavidWe: Enjoy the bagels, folks
2005.10.09 05:49:29 NgGst6: o nwere o
2005.10.09 05:49:35 LeanneMM: thanks David. I MEAN thanks!
2005.10.09 05:49:38 NgGst6: n ga egota ya this week
2005.10.09 05:50:04 NgGst6: kene kwa ya
2005.10.09 05:50:16 BumskyGst3: I ma na o di mkpa na obodo a. o nenyelu aka kalia email
2005.10.09 05:50:25 NgGst6: ok
2005.10.09 05:50:33 NgGst6: o ma agafe monday
2005.10.09 05:50:45 LeanneMM: I will certainly read yur articles, Sedat - I know NOTHING about your part of the world (except, maybe, where it is!)
2005.10.09 05:51:02 Maggi: lot of English has slipped in
2005.10.09 05:51:07 BumskyGst3: obi di m uto nke uku na i bata go UK
2005.10.09 05:51:09 LeanneMM: yes Maggi
2005.10.09 05:51:17 NgGst6: maka gini zi?
2005.10.09 05:51:33 BumskyGst3: kedu afa ihe ndi mahadum gi nyelu gi ka i guo biko?
2005.10.09 05:51:37 SedatA: what are these guys talking about?
2005.10.09 05:51:44 LeanneMM: no clue, Sedat
2005.10.09 05:51:53 RobertWB: email and tuesday, OK?
2005.10.09 05:51:54 Maggi: good question
2005.10.09 05:51:59 BumskyGst3: maka na anyi ga eri zi nne no ebe a nu
2005.10.09 05:52:02 ThomasLev: i think it's hausa
2005.10.09 05:52:05 NgGst6: o kwa ogugu maka obodo a
2005.10.09 05:52:07 Maggi: Monday
2005.10.09 05:52:12 Maggi: this week
2005.10.09 05:52:13 LeanneMM: no, Bob, Monday
2005.10.09 05:52:16 RobertWB: Thats a good guess, Thomas.
2005.10.09 05:52:21 ThomasLev: gaskiya?
2005.10.09 05:52:23 LeeB: Are they speaking turkish?
2005.10.09 05:52:25 RobertWB: I beleive you were right LEanne.
2005.10.09 05:52:37 Maggi: no way
2005.10.09 05:52:50 Maggi: Sedat would know
2005.10.09 05:52:51 BumskyGst3: ndi a n'acho i mata ihe anyi na asu.
2005.10.09 05:53:02 Maggi: Asian
2005.10.09 05:53:03 SedatA: no
2005.10.09 05:53:06 NgGst6: a ga m ezigara gi email ga agwa gi ihe nile . ihe ndia na ekwu on a togwa gi ochi otu o si atom
2005.10.09 05:53:11 NgGst6: ama m
2005.10.09 05:53:14 SedatA: they don't speak turkish
2005.10.09 05:53:19 LeeB: Sedat... its saying there was no intention of casuaties but if it happened incidently, then thats what must be?
2005.10.09 05:53:21 NgGst6: o chi atogbuola m
2005.10.09 05:53:31 BumskyGst3: O ka anyi gwa ihe ihe any na asu?
2005.10.09 05:53:33 SedatA: it is said that
2005.10.09 05:53:39 LeeB left the room (signed off).
2005.10.09 05:53:44 SedatA: there was a struggle between two nations
2005.10.09 05:53:49 BumskyGst3: oya nu. Ka anyi hapu ha biko.
2005.10.09 05:53:50 NgGst6: i choro ka anyi gwa ha?
2005.10.09 05:53:52 RobertWB: or maybe its old Gaelic.
2005.10.09 05:53:53 TapioH joined the room.
2005.10.09 05:53:54 SedatA: but not only armenians died
2005.10.09 05:53:55 LeeB joined the room.
2005.10.09 05:54:03 SedatA: but also
2005.10.09 05:54:04 LeanneMM: wb Lee
2005.10.09 05:54:04 ThomasLev: swahili?
2005.10.09 05:54:12 SedatA: turkish people died
2005.10.09 05:54:17 Maggi: Tapio is in Finland
2005.10.09 05:54:17 NgGst6: i gakwara uka ta?
2005.10.09 05:54:18 SedatA: and at the same rate
2005.10.09 05:54:27 ThomasLev: hi Tapio
2005.10.09 05:54:28 BumskyGst3: Mba, anyi ama agwa ha.
2005.10.09 05:54:28 LeanneMM: Hi Tapio
2005.10.09 05:54:35 NgGst6: ngwa nu
2005.10.09 05:54:36 SedatA: hi Tapio
2005.10.09 05:54:37 LeeB: ahh
2005.10.09 05:54:45 TapioH: good afternoon all
2005.10.09 05:54:58 NgGst6: ana m aju ma unu ana agakwa uka ebe ahu?
2005.10.09 05:54:58 BumskyGst3: Ka anyi nye ha obele oru ka ha jee cheba ya echiche biko.
2005.10.09 05:55:00 LeanneMM: it's early morning for me Tapio
2005.10.09 05:55:19 NgGst6: kedu ihe anyi ga enye ha?
2005.10.09 05:55:34 NgGst6: o ka anyi sutu na oyibo?
2005.10.09 05:55:40 BumskyGst3: Ofuma nu. Obioma na enyi m nwoke jebe nke ututu.
2005.10.09 05:55:54 VanceS joined the room.
2005.10.09 05:55:56 NgGst6: o ebe emeka no ka i no?
2005.10.09 05:56:02 VanceS: hi everyone
2005.10.09 05:56:08 ThomasLev: hi Vance!
2005.10.09 05:56:09 LeanneMM: Hi Vance. How's your Swahili?
2005.10.09 05:56:12 VanceS: there were only a dozen people here earlier
2005.10.09 05:56:14 BumskyGst3: mba.
2005.10.09 05:56:14 TapioH: Yes Leanne, i remember canada...
2005.10.09 05:56:22 VanceS: Mzuri sana
2005.10.09 05:56:24 LeanneMM: did you come visit Tapio?
2005.10.09 05:56:28 Maggi: your screen is subtitled with a language you don't know
2005.10.09 05:56:33 LeeB: hi vance
2005.10.09 05:56:38 BumskyGst3: Eeee, mu na Emeka no na ofu ebe.
2005.10.09 05:56:45 TapioH: this ignore-command is good...
2005.10.09 05:56:52 DavidWe wonders if Sedat got to his question
2005.10.09 05:56:55 NgGst6: ngwa eme ka i jiri addy mu ihe i na eme ebe ah
2005.10.09 05:57:01 VanceS: jambo bumsky
2005.10.09 05:57:03 SedatA: excuse me
2005.10.09 05:57:07 DavidWe smiles
2005.10.09 05:57:10 Maggi: yes it is
2005.10.09 05:57:11 TapioH: Leanne i almost live here...adopted
2005.10.09 05:57:28 LeanneMM: here in Canada Tapio? Where?
2005.10.09 05:57:30 BumskyGst3: oya u
2005.10.09 05:57:36 SedatA: there are two languages here
2005.10.09 05:57:40 Maggi: Lapland
2005.10.09 05:57:42 BumskyGst3: oya biko ka anyi hapu ndia.
2005.10.09 05:57:42 DavidWe: Many languages
2005.10.09 05:57:44 SedatA: and I cannot follow the conversation
2005.10.09 05:57:48 NgGst6: ngwa nu
2005.10.09 05:57:52 TapioH: Nah, I'm in Finland...
2005.10.09 05:58:01 NgGst6: ka o dizia mgbe ozo
2005.10.09 05:58:02 DavidWe . o O ( strange language )
2005.10.09 05:58:05 DavidWe . o O ( Finnish )
2005.10.09 05:58:07 VanceS: nice to see so many people
2005.10.09 05:58:19 DavidWe thought that there is a connection between Finnish and Turkish
2005.10.09 05:58:21 BumskyGst3: Ka anyi kpatopu nkata nayi na mail.
2005.10.09 05:58:22 TapioH put gsts on ignore...
2005.10.09 05:58:24 LeanneMM: no, but I mean you visited Canada and were almost adopted by someone here?
2005.10.09 05:58:29 NgGst6: ngwa nu
2005.10.09 05:58:35 DavidWe: Right in Kamloops, too, Leanne
2005.10.09 05:58:37 NgGst6: a puola mu ohhh
2005.10.09 05:58:43 VanceS: Jeff and I are going to head up to the webheads room
2005.10.09 05:58:48 DavidWe nods
2005.10.09 05:58:51 LeanneMM has almost been adopted by a Mexican family
2005.10.09 05:58:55 VanceS: anyone who wants to talk technology can join us
2005.10.09 05:58:59 BumskyGst3: o di mma.
2005.10.09 05:58:59 DavidWe . o O ( and an orange tree )
2005.10.09 05:59:03 NgGst6 left the room (signed off).
2005.10.09 05:59:05 DavidWe: Mac
2005.10.09 05:59:10 BumskyGst3 left the room (signed off).
2005.10.09 05:59:13 TapioH: Leanne, i have visited Canada only once...landing on my way back to finland...from denver
2005.10.09 05:59:19 RobertWB: Mind if I join you , Vance.
2005.10.09 05:59:22 VanceS left the room.
2005.10.09 05:59:32 LeanneMM: not long enough to get adopted, then, Tapio
2005.10.09 05:59:37 AndrewP: Vance did you get the email I sent to the EVO02 listserve
2005.10.09 05:59:43 AnnaK left the room.
2005.10.09 05:59:55 AndrewP: can you post the events in the Webheads calendar of events when you get to it
2005.10.09 06:00:09 TapioH: Leanne, what I had in mind was more or less the Tapped In forum
2005.10.09 06:00:12 Maggi: have to follow Andy
2005.10.09 06:00:14 RobertWB left the room.
2005.10.09 06:00:27 Maggi: they< left
2005.10.09 06:00:34 LeanneMM: Andy - Vance already went to WiA..join him there, or pm him
2005.10.09 06:01:13 LeanneMM apologizes for taking Tapio so literally
2005.10.09 06:01:22 DavidWe: Here is what Jeff said:
2005.10.09 06:01:31 LeanneMM: careful David
2005.10.09 06:01:37 AndrewP left the room.
2005.10.09 06:01:42 DavidWe: knew if I logged in as three african stooges I could get people to come to WiA.
2005.10.09 06:01:54 DavidWe: Careful, Leanne?
2005.10.09 06:02:10 LeanneMM: oh, I thought it was going to be worse than that.
2005.10.09 06:02:17 LeanneMM . o O ( we still have a visitor )
2005.10.09 06:02:18 DavidWe winks
2005.10.09 06:02:23 DavidWe: Do we?
2005.10.09 06:02:26 DavidWe smiles
2005.10.09 06:02:58 DavidWe: Check the idle time for the remaining guest
2005.10.09 06:03:17 DennisOl joined the room.
2005.10.09 06:03:23 DavidWe: Hi, Dennis. WElcome
2005.10.09 06:03:24 KarimaB joined the room.
2005.10.09 06:03:25 TapioH: hmmm, ghosting isn't allowed
2005.10.09 06:03:26 LeanneMM: Hi Dennis
2005.10.09 06:03:30 DavidWe waves to Karima
2005.10.09 06:03:31 Maggi: Hi dennis
2005.10.09 06:03:35 DavidWe: Hi, Karima. Welcome
2005.10.09 06:03:37 LeanneMM who
2005.10.09 06:03:43 DavidWe . o O ( /who )
2005.10.09 06:03:45 LeanneMM: ?
2005.10.09 06:03:47 ThomasLev: waves
2005.10.09 06:03:53 MichaelMa left the room (signed off).
2005.10.09 06:03:54 KarimaB: hi david always there
2005.10.09 06:04:04 LeanneMM: Thanks, David ;-)
2005.10.09 06:04:17 DavidWe: Welcome, Leanne
2005.10.09 06:04:37 LeanneMM: see, it's been such a long time...I even forget how to do it
2005.10.09 06:04:40 LeanneMM: ;-)
2005.10.09 06:04:45 DennisOl: Hi, Leanne, Wex, Maggi, Tom.
2005.10.09 06:04:47 DavidWe: That long, huh?
2005.10.09 06:04:49 KarimaB left the room (signed off).
2005.10.09 06:04:55 DennisOl: Are the Webheads elsewhere?
2005.10.09 06:04:56 DavidWe: How's it going, Dennis?
2005.10.09 06:05:02 LeanneMM . o O ( not like riding a bike )
2005.10.09 06:05:03 DavidWe: WIA group room
2005.10.09 06:05:04 Maggi: Tag Dennis
2005.10.09 06:05:08 TapioH left the room.
2005.10.09 06:05:16 DennisOl: OK, Wex. But right now I have the beginnings of a sinus headache.
2005.10.09 06:05:29 DavidWe: Drugs?
2005.10.09 06:05:29 DaveAC joined the room.
2005.10.09 06:05:32 DavidWe waves to Dave
2005.10.09 06:05:33 LeanneMM: Hi Dave
2005.10.09 06:05:35 DavidWe: Hi, Dave. WElcome
2005.10.09 06:05:40 DennisOl: Tag, Maggi. Wie gehts?
2005.10.09 06:05:41 DaveAC: morning fine people...
2005.10.09 06:05:56 DavidWe . o O ( and Canadins )
2005.10.09 06:06:00 DavidWe . o O ( Canadians* )
2005.10.09 06:06:01 Maggi: besser als dir
2005.10.09 06:06:02 LeanneMM: Fine morning, Dave?
2005.10.09 06:06:12 LeanneMM: Happy Thanksgiving, Dave
2005.10.09 06:06:12 DennisOl: I guess I'll go to the WIA group room.
2005.10.09 06:06:14 DaveAC: windy, overcast...
2005.10.09 06:06:17 DennisOl smiles at Maggi
2005.10.09 06:06:20 DaveAC: nice day for driving
2005.10.09 06:06:27 DavidWe: driving somewhere, Dave?
2005.10.09 06:06:36 DennisOl left the room.
2005.10.09 06:06:46 DaveAC: happy thanksgiving
2005.10.09 06:06:51 DaveAC: yes, back to PEI
2005.10.09 06:06:54 DaveAC: after the show
2005.10.09 06:06:56 ThomasLev: happy thanksgiving!
2005.10.09 06:06:57 DavidWe: How far is that?
2005.10.09 06:07:00 DaveAC: 4 hours
2005.10.09 06:07:01 DavidWe . o O ( from where you are )
2005.10.09 06:07:03 DaveAC: not too bad
2005.10.09 06:07:08 DavidWe: Boat rides involved?
2005.10.09 06:07:18 LeanneMM: Already had one turkey dinner...with apologies to Sedat in Turkey
2005.10.09 06:07:20 DavidWe: I've been to Fredericton (drove from Philadelphia) but no farther
2005.10.09 06:07:29 LeanneMM likes turkey and Turkey
2005.10.09 06:07:32 DavidWe smiles
2005.10.09 06:07:35 DaveAC: there is a very large bridge that aids in jumping over the water
2005.10.09 06:07:36 DavidWe: What about pheasant?
2005.10.09 06:07:42 DavidWe likes bridges
2005.10.09 06:07:51 DaveAC: it's a little over 13km long
2005.10.09 06:07:53 LeanneMM: never had pheasant that I know of, David
2005.10.09 06:07:55 DavidWe: Cool
2005.10.09 06:08:04 DavidWe . o O ( Guinea Fowl? )
2005.10.09 06:08:18 LeanneMM 's cousin in law was an engineer on that bridge
2005.10.09 06:08:18 Maggi had it in England
2005.10.09 06:08:39 DavidWe nods
2005.10.09 06:09:12 LeanneMM: He did a presentation on the Confederation Bridge for Dafne's architecture class
2005.10.09 06:09:29 DavidWe: Close to 20,000 may have been killed in Pakistan and the Kashmir region
2005.10.09 06:09:34 DavidWe: Way cool, Leanne
2005.10.09 06:09:42 Maggi: saw thatg
2005.10.09 06:09:45 LeanneMM . o O ( my brush with greatness )
2005.10.09 06:09:46 DavidWe: I have to mention the possibility to my sister (the architect)
2005.10.09 06:09:58 LeanneMM: what possibility David?
2005.10.09 06:10:05 DavidWe: Doing something online with Daf's class
2005.10.09 06:10:12 DavidWe . o O ( since my sister is an architect )
2005.10.09 06:10:13 LeanneMM: oh yes. Good idea
2005.10.09 06:10:20 DavidWe: Daf's idea
2005.10.09 06:10:29 DaveAC: off to do prep... see some of you later!
2005.10.09 06:10:34 DavidWe waves bye
2005.10.09 06:10:35 LeanneMM: bye Dave
2005.10.09 06:10:40 DaveAC left the room (signed off).
2005.10.09 06:10:43 DavidWe goes to find socks
2005.10.09 06:11:50 SedatA: I have to leave now
2005.10.09 06:11:53 SedatA: see you later
2005.10.09 06:12:04 LeanneMM: OK bye - I promise to read your articles
2005.10.09 06:12:09 Maggi: bye Sedat
2005.10.09 06:12:16 LeanneMM: we can discuss them next week OK?
2005.10.09 06:12:29 ThomasLev: bye Sedat
2005.10.09 06:12:34 Maggi: have a good day!
2005.10.09 06:13:41 LeanneMM: So Maggi, I don't think you said whether the EU is an economic union or empire-building?
2005.10.09 06:14:04 Maggi: not empire buiding
2005.10.09 06:14:18 SedatA: bye
2005.10.09 06:14:26 SedatA left the room (signed off).
2005.10.09 06:14:26 LeanneMM: Bye Sedat take care
2005.10.09 06:14:33 Maggi: you misu derstand the purpose of joing
2005.10.09 06:14:59 LeanneMM: strictly economic? i.e. the euro?
2005.10.09 06:15:13 Maggi: it is NOT like becoming a state
2005.10.09 06:15:30 Maggi: one reason
2005.10.09 06:15:34 LeanneMM: I don't think NAFTA is like becoming a state either
2005.10.09 06:15:41 Maggi: but not all a
2005.10.09 06:15:55 Maggi: all have the Euro
2005.10.09 06:16:20 Maggi: this is NOTHING like NAFTA
2005.10.09 06:17:40 LeanneMM: then I don't really understand what the purpose is. Does it help people get across borders easier?
2005.10.09 06:17:51 Maggi: yes
2005.10.09 06:18:02 LeeB left the room.
2005.10.09 06:18:12 Maggi: but that is NOT the aim
2005.10.09 06:18:22 LeanneMM: ahhh, so while the US is making it harder for people to cross borders, the Europeans are making it easier.
2005.10.09 06:18:48 Maggi: only for thwe members
2005.10.09 06:19:13 LeanneMM recalls seeing ESL jobs open to EU members only
2005.10.09 06:19:41 Maggi: it is different to what the US and Canada have done
2005.10.09 06:19:46 Maggi: brb
2005.10.09 06:19:52 LeanneMM: OK
2005.10.09 06:20:09 LeanneMM: TOm, what's your take on NAFTA?
2005.10.09 06:21:36 LeeB joined the room.
2005.10.09 06:21:42 LeanneMM: wb Lee
2005.10.09 06:21:47 LeanneMM: What's up in WiA?
2005.10.09 06:21:52 LeeB: moodle
2005.10.09 06:22:06 LeanneMM: not into moodling, eh?
2005.10.09 06:22:20 DavidWe is going to sneak out while it is not raining to see whether anyone wants to play sports
2005.10.09 06:22:26 ThomasLev: my class is looking into NAFTA, CAFTA, etc.
2005.10.09 06:22:30 LeanneMM: ENjoy David.
2005.10.09 06:22:34 DavidWe: Thanks for the info about the fancy banjo, Lee
2005.10.09 06:22:34 LeeB: oh yes but i only have downloaded it so far and have to figure out how to get it to work
2005.10.09 06:22:37 DavidWe: Thanks, Leanne
2005.10.09 06:22:43 LeanneMM: See you tomorrow, David
2005.10.09 06:22:47 LeeB: David... i can not get your message to work..
2005.10.09 06:22:55 DavidWe: My message?
2005.10.09 06:23:04 LeanneMM: CAFTA Tom?
2005.10.09 06:23:08 LeeB: I have been trying to click on your name to have a private chat
2005.10.09 06:23:11 LeanneMM . o O ( this is new to me )
2005.10.09 06:23:18 DavidWe: double-click?
2005.10.09 06:23:29 LeeB: nothing..
2005.10.09 06:23:32 ThomasLev: central american free trade aaaaa...
2005.10.09 06:23:32 DavidWe: or click once...then, the little speaking face icon
2005.10.09 06:23:33 DavidWe: Hang on
2005.10.09 06:23:46 DavidWe: Is it working the other way?
2005.10.09 06:23:50 LeanneMM will look the other way while Lee and David talk here
2005.10.09 06:23:52 ThomasLev: it will do the same thing nafta did
2005.10.09 06:23:53 TapioH joined the room.
2005.10.09 06:23:55 DavidWe: No problem, Leanne
2005.10.09 06:24:03 LeanneMM: wb Tapio
2005.10.09 06:24:33 LeanneMM: Tom, is that the one where South America is also involved? Or just Central America maybe?
2005.10.09 06:24:45 TapioH: who Ngozigst13
2005.10.09 06:24:49 ThomasLev: we lose some jobs, our companies get access to some markets, the unions hate it...for most of us it no different
2005.10.09 06:25:08 ThomasLev: cafta includes dominican rep. but no s.a. countries.
2005.10.09 06:25:16 LeanneMM: I dunno, Tapio
2005.10.09 06:25:22 TapioH: walkabout time...
2005.10.09 06:25:27 TapioH: bye all
2005.10.09 06:25:34 LeanneMM: see you Tapio
2005.10.09 06:25:39 TapioH: see you in a couple of hours
2005.10.09 06:25:43 ThomasLev: see you!
2005.10.09 06:25:43 TapioH left the room (signed off).
2005.10.09 06:26:12 LeanneMM: Tom, what I fear about NAFTA is that is opens the door for some to take advantage of others
2005.10.09 06:26:50 LeanneMM: I agree it provides opportunities, but there's also a danger of going too far
2005.10.09 06:27:40 LeanneMM: like, the guy that headed Enron is now CEO of a company that is buying our natural gas supply dompany
2005.10.09 06:27:44 LeanneMM: *company
2005.10.09 06:28:00 LeanneMM: is that good or bad for us in BC?
2005.10.09 06:28:04 DavidWe hugs Leanne
2005.10.09 06:28:06 DavidWe hugs Maggi
2005.10.09 06:28:10 LeanneMM hugs David
2005.10.09 06:28:11 DavidWe waves bye to folks
2005.10.09 06:28:15 DavidWe: Enjoy Sunday, people
2005.10.09 06:28:18 DavidWe: I'll be back later
2005.10.09 06:28:23 LeanneMM: have a great day David
2005.10.09 06:28:26 DavidWe: Thanks
2005.10.09 06:28:28 DavidWe: Ciao
2005.10.09 06:28:29 DavidWe left the room (signed off).
2005.10.09 06:28:56 ThomasLev: these ceo guys are snakes. generally what's good for them makes me very suspicious...
2005.10.09 06:29:33 LeanneMM: right. At first, I thought it was very altruistic for this Kinder guy to take only $1.00US salary per year...
2005.10.09 06:29:39 NgoziGst3 left the room (signed off).
2005.10.09 06:29:43 LeanneMM: until I found out he used to run Enron
2005.10.09 06:30:11 LeanneMM doesn't know much about ENron, except it turned out very badly
2005.10.09 06:30:22 LeeB: By Maggi..Leanne..Thomas and Lee.... ooops that me...
2005.10.09 06:30:29 LeeB: I must go tend to things for a bit
2005.10.09 06:30:31 LeanneMM: bye Lee
2005.10.09 06:30:36 LeeB: HTSYS
2005.10.09 06:30:44 LeeB: Thats hope to see you soon!
2005.10.09 06:30:51 LeanneMM: thanks for the translation
2005.10.09 06:30:56 LeeB: haha
2005.10.09 06:31:08 LeeB: Really makes me sound important!
2005.10.09 06:31:15 LeanneMM: Lee:HYBDMTM
2005.10.09 06:31:22 LeeB: hmmm
2005.10.09 06:31:29 ThomasLev: ???????
2005.10.09 06:31:33 LeanneMM: that's "Hope your banjos don't multiply too much"
2005.10.09 06:31:43 LeeB: heeehaatteeehee
2005.10.09 06:32:03 LeanneMM smiles
2005.10.09 06:32:06 LeeB: Actually for the price they are these days I wouldn't mind.. one I know of is $56000
2005.10.09 06:32:14 LeanneMM: yikes!
2005.10.09 06:32:24 LeanneMM: I'm sure that's out of David's price range
2005.10.09 06:32:29 LeeB: I know ... a banjo, ... a house... a banjo... a house
2005.10.09 06:32:37 LeeB: lets seeee
2005.10.09 06:32:40 LeeB: what to do
2005.10.09 06:32:49 LeanneMM: you can live in a house...
2005.10.09 06:33:02 LeanneMM: you can live off a banjo...
2005.10.09 06:33:14 LeeB: No, I talked to him and will set him up with one around 200 to 500. I knwo everyone and can get a really good deal for him
2005.10.09 06:33:19 ThomasLev: banjo will drive away the ceo's
2005.10.09 06:33:24 LeanneMM: both will keep you dry in a rainstorm
2005.10.09 06:33:28 LeeB: true thomas
2005.10.09 06:33:44 LeeB: a banjo wards off strangers.. one good hit over the head
2005.10.09 06:33:54 LeanneMM: or a couple of sour notes!
2005.10.09 06:33:59 LeeB: true'
2005.10.09 06:34:24 LeeB: Hey, i put up a new song from our cd... Pressed through the Crowd.. if you wanna hear one.
2005.10.09 06:34:29 LeeB: I will give you the link
2005.10.09 06:34:37 ThomasLev: i'll bite
2005.10.09 06:34:37 LeeB: its only part of a tune
2005.10.09 06:34:37 LeanneMM: sure
2005.10.09 06:34:50 LeanneMM: who writes these, Lee?
2005.10.09 06:34:58 CorinneW joined the room.
2005.10.09 06:35:03 LeanneMM: Hi Corinne
2005.10.09 06:35:31 CorinneW: HI Leanne
2005.10.09 06:35:32 LeeB: http://crosscreekbluegrass.com/pttc.htm
2005.10.09 06:35:54 LeeB: Well thisone was written by Bob Pasley .. another guy in bluegrass we know
2005.10.09 06:35:55 CorinneW: Hello Lee too
2005.10.09 06:35:58 LeanneMM: Thanks Lee, I'll give it a listen later when folks are up in my house
2005.10.09 06:36:08 LeeB: Hello Corinne
2005.10.09 06:36:09 HeidiGst3 joined the room.
2005.10.09 06:36:12 LeanneMM . o O ( only 6:35 AM here )
2005.10.09 06:36:14 LeeB: It is actually a gospel tune
2005.10.09 06:36:20 LeeB: but its purrty
2005.10.09 06:36:24 LeanneMM: great...it's Sunday!
2005.10.09 06:36:32 LeanneMM: Hi Heidi
2005.10.09 06:36:33 CorinneW left the room.
2005.10.09 06:36:41 LeeB: well, gotta go... later all
2005.10.09 06:36:45 LeanneMM: bye
2005.10.09 06:36:58 ThomasLev: thanks!
2005.10.09 06:37:32 LeeB left the room.
2005.10.09 06:37:39 LeanneMM: I'm going to sign off now too, Tom - I have bread dough in the bread machine that needs making into cinnamon buns
2005.10.09 06:37:54 Maggi: .waves to those leaving
2005.10.09 06:37:57 ThomasLev: ok!
2005.10.09 06:38:09 LeanneMM: Maggi, I think Heidi may need some help...
2005.10.09 06:38:13 LeanneMM hugs Maggi
2005.10.09 06:38:18 Maggi: k
2005.10.09 06:38:23 LeanneMM: see you next time
2005.10.09 06:38:28 Maggi hugs
2005.10.09 06:38:43 LeanneMM left the room (signed off).
2005.10.09 06:39:18 ThomasLev: brb
2005.10.09 06:39:53 HeidiGst3 left the room (signed off).
2005.10.09 06:39:58 Maggi goes to get some things done
2005.10.09 06:40:17 Maggi left the room (signed off).
2005.10.09 06:43:10 HeidiGre joined the room.
2005.10.09 06:43:32 CorinneW joined the room.
2005.10.09 06:43:51 CorinneW left the room.
2005.10.09 06:46:15 HeidiGre left the room.
2005.10.09 06:46:22 DamianosD joined the room.
2005.10.09 06:46:43 SusanneN joined the room.
2005.10.09 06:47:09 SusanneN: Hi Damian!
2005.10.09 06:47:33 SusanneN: I nsuppose webheads have moved up to the WIA office
2005.10.09 06:47:43 SusanneN: and, hi Thomas too :-)
2005.10.09 06:48:01 SusanneN: see you at WIA_grp
2005.10.09 06:48:13 SusanneN left the room.
2005.10.09 06:49:46 Pink_caGst3 joined the room.
2005.10.09 06:49:50 DamianosD left the room (signed off).
2005.10.09 06:50:19 Pink_caGst3 left the room.
2005.10.09 06:50:36 DamianosD joined the room.
2005.10.09 06:50:56 Pink_caGst3 joined the room.
2005.10.09 06:51:08 Pink_caGst3 left the room.
2005.10.09 06:51:12 DamianosD: Can you receive English now?
2005.10.09 06:51:18 DamianosD: OK Hi .
2005.10.09 06:51:37 DamianosD left the room.
2005.10.09 06:52:00 Pink_caGst3 joined the room.
2005.10.09 06:52:58 Pink_caGst3 left the room.
2005.10.09 06:54:04 Pink_caGst3 joined the room.
2005.10.09 07:03:41 DaveAC joined the room.
2005.10.09 07:04:04 DaveAC left the room.
2005.10.09 07:08:28 SusanneN joined the room.
2005.10.09 07:08:30 SusanneN left the room (signed off).
2005.10.09 07:08:31 SusanneN joined the room.
2005.10.09 07:08:40 SusanneN left the room.
2005.10.09 07:12:20 Pink_caGst3 left the room.
2005.10.09 07:12:56 Pink_caGst3 joined the room.
2005.10.09 07:17:46 BjB joined the room.
2005.10.09 07:18:18 BjB: Hi, Pink and Thomas
2005.10.09 07:20:07 ThomasLev: Hello!
2005.10.09 07:20:23 BjB: were you with the webheads group, Tom?
2005.10.09 07:20:43 ThomasLev: Yes. Sometimes I'm away though as I have a couple of kids on this end....
2005.10.09 07:20:58 ThomasLev: Vance is in the WiA room I believe
2005.10.09 07:21:02 BjB smiles and nods
2005.10.09 07:21:12 BjB: do you know how to get there?
2005.10.09 07:21:25 Pink_caGst3 left the room (signed off).
2005.10.09 07:21:40 CheriH joined the room.
2005.10.09 07:21:50 BjB: Hi, Cheri
2005.10.09 07:21:51 ThomasLev: yes. go over to the online tab and click on it. then put your mouse on the person you want to follow. then click on the door below...
2005.10.09 07:22:03 BjB: right, Tom!
2005.10.09 07:22:14 ThomasLev: go ahead I'll follow you...
2005.10.09 07:22:38 BjB: I'm a helpdesk volunteer for Tapped In. I usually just lurk here in reception
2005.10.09 07:23:01 BjB: you can still go to the online tab, click one time on VanceS and then click on the door
2005.10.09 07:23:47 ThomasLev: I might try it but I'm being called away so...
2005.10.09 07:23:53 ThomasLev left the room.

Spanish chat - chatear en espanol

2006-11-17T20:31:00.000-08:00

Here is some Spanish chat. I have some familiarity with Spanish also, and can make out what is going on here, though I may be wrong. Also what I have transcribed here may be gone by the time you, the reader, encounter the link. Nonetheless you'll get the pattern of it.

como stan = como estan
hola to2 = hola todos (dos=two)
Dnd sta... = donde esta (where are...)
aki = aqui, variant spelling

Esperame al rato t txteo toy plandando kn mis friends lo d mi karro
(not sure what this is, but t=te, kn=con, friends instead of amigos??? d=de, etc.)

km ke hi dzi miguel what r u thinking ah ah
(here's mixing spanish & english chat; not sure what's going on here either)

Here I'll stop; these are personal messages, though they're in a public space, and I have no idea what I'm transcribing, so I could get in trouble I suppose. And I don't mean any intrusion of privacy. I'll just point out a couple of obvious things:

first, willing to skip vowels, use k instead of que; spanish chatters show some familiarity with english if not mixing, using english letters where spanish would be not much harder. Using an occasional English word or phrase; is the meaning that different?? A kind of chat code-switching. Use of numbers is not common here but I saw it.

romanji chats

2006-11-17T20:11:00.000-08:00

I haven't encountered a name for these yet, but they are chat languages which use English letters, by necessity, because one or both computer-users does not have the appropriate font to type in the native language.

An example is a Saudi student in my class, a woman, who promised to tell me more. She claims to chat using English letters but basically in Arabic, with her friends back home. She spends quite a bit of time doing it and I suspect that therefore this language has developed a little. And may be common to others besides her.

Another example is a guy I started up with in the locker room of the swimming pool. There were actually two, one a Sinhalese from Sri Lanka, and another whose native language was Malayalam, also in the Indian subcontinent. The Sinhalese left, but the Malayalam speaker maintained that he chatted in Malayalam, but using English letters, with friends back home. Malayalam has 51 characters; difficult to type and adjust to even when you have the fonts. In addition, he said, on the Indian subcontinent most proficient computer-users were also proficient English speaker/users, thus making mastery of their own native tongue, on computer, unnecessary. He said that they often compared their computer usage with that of China, which has many more webpages in Chinese, for example, and they felt that that statistic was unfair, since it didn't really mean that Hindi-language and Hindi-script users were undeveloped on the computer; it was just that many of their pages were in English.

About the Malayalam chat, in English letters, he said that it was clunky; if a third party entered a conversation, it would not be easy for them to catch on to what was being talked about. This was due to the difficult translation of Malayalam to English letters, apparently. Once one got used to a system, one would do ok. But someone from outside would first have to notice the system, which might not be the same in every conversation.

A final example was an early memory of mine, which I would love to get a hold of. I was chatting with webheads, I believe, when visitors appeared in the chat room and chatted vigorously in another language, but with English script. They were chatting furiously and we had to talk around them; we occasionally asked them to go occupy another room (there were plenty around) but they were either totally absorbed in their own conversation, or unable to understand ours; they kept on going, to our annoyance. I was fascinated though, and tried to guess the language. It wasn't clear but my guess was African. Webheads, who are fairly worldly, had a wide range of guesses; it wasn't clear at all. I may be able to find the transcript...

A characteristic of these Romanji chat languages (and I may be misusing the word Romanji here) is that they are born of necessity. People get together and want to communicate; they have and English/romanji keyboard; they make do. When something easier comes along, they switch; if they are fairly educated, they already know another alphabet, another typing pardigm, and can go back to it. Presumably some multilinguals never go back, never have to or want to.

A number of languages have had roman-script variants for years and some have even made the roman-script variant standard; Turkish comes to mind but there are more. By the way, my Turkish student claims that there is a Turkish chat, alive and well, no vowels; I'll ask her a few questions when I get the chance. It's fascinating.

Korean chat

2006-11-17T19:45:00.000-08:00

One good thing about Korean chat is that I actually have some familiarity with the language Korean, so, with some well-placed questions I can determine the degree of similarity or difference with English chat. Korean is also interesting in that in many ways Korea is more advanced technologically than we are; it has more people online, more people occupying online environments; more advanced technology, etc. Our students are heavily reliant on chat to stay in touch with their friends back home; I started up the conversations that enabled this post after seeing one of them, quiet as usual in class, rush over to the lab computers during break and get on "cyworld" - a Korean portal- to chat with his friends in Korean.

Getting Korean fontface on most computers is now commonplace; all our lab computers have it, so that they can now just go to almost any computer in the Faner environment and type in Korean with friends back home. I suspect that there was a time, maybe a long time, where this wasn't possible at this end; Korean speakers may have had an English-letter chat that is now unnecessary. And, in some places, it may still be necessary; presumably some Korean speakers are in places with older or monolingual computers and have to chat an English-letter variant.

Korean language is different than English in that normal writing of it requires making a syllable as a character- with a beginning consonant, a vowel, and an ending consonant. It was inconceivable to me that this writing form could be shortened or the vowels deleted. But my students assured me that Korean chat sometimes uses consonant-only forms; for example CHuh KHuh (two consonants) is a universally accepted short version of CHuKHamnida (congratulations).

Common greetings have short forms: pan-gap sumnida = pang ga, anyeong haseyo = what looks like oL - a kind of half ah, half n.

They assure me that the use of numbers is common. The sounds of numbers can thus represent common syllables just as we might use c u l8r or 2 die 4. 79 = friend (shin - ku); 7942= friends with binding relationship (shin - ku - sa - ri). 82 (ba - li) = quickly, common in advertising; 82 53 (ba - li - o - sam) = come quickly. Watch out for 18 (ship - phal) - that means SOB, roughly.

The ha-ha-ha has equivalent in Korean; they claim to have ha-ha-ha, he-he-he, and even h-h-h as well as KHuk KHuk KHuk or KH KH KH, all possibly having different meanings. I couldn't discern exactly what these meanings were.

They insisted that a lot of Korean chat is Korean slang, a young-person's language that has different endings, different words. anyeong ha-se-yo is anyeong ha-sam, and even an-yeong = anyohng (long o),

When I insisted that these chat forms were no shorter (in writing) than the formal forms, they agreed. They said that shorter wasn't important; slang was important. It was part of their identity as young to use that slang, and the fact that it was shorter in some cases didn't matter so much to them.

This I found interesting. I'd been under the impression that the online environment itself caused the necessity of shortening the language, but that may not be the case. I have seen some chat languages make words longer, or prefer longer ones as shorter ones go out of style, but often they just prefer different ones (kewl/cool) for no other reason than being different. slang has primacy over short- this is a testable hypothesis, maybe.

interview with Noah

2006-11-15T22:25:00.000-08:00

The following interview is being written down as an ongoing project. I am interviewing my 14-year-old son, who uses chat in two domains and knows quite a bit about it. Please note that I am revising it actually as I write it, and therefore anything you might read today may change tomorrow, either because he does not agree with the way I transcribe what happened, or because I myself have chosen to add further questions and insert them (the interview may not be true to time order of questions asked). I am trying mostly to get the facts down so I can peruse them later.

ME: Tell me about the domains where you use chat. I understand that at our house you spend about three hours a day on Runescape.
NOAH: Yes, and I am chatting most of that whole time with other players, mostly my friends.
ME: How many are there?
NOAH: When I log on it says that about 200,000 are now on the total of Runescape. But there are different worlds (~100 maybe, ~half of these are member-only), and my friends and I usually occupy a single one. You can chat publicly, which means that anyone in the area can understand you, or chat privately to anyone who is on your friends list, who is playing the game anywhere.

ME: And you have a certain chat language that is unique to Runescape?

NOAH: Definitely. First, Runescape has filters that prevent certain words from coming through. So we have to make others- like shucks, bstrd, fhk, doushe, that will slip through the filters. Another one is dumasse. They bleep homosexual and gay because they don't want people calling each other that.
ME: Can you tell me more about that?
NOAH: Sure. Of course they bleep all the big ones, and we just go around it whenever we have to. But they don't bleep hell. We had a big argument, or discussion, once. I took the stand that they didn't bleep hell because they didn't want to, because they didn't think it was strong enough as a cuss word. But one of my friends took the stand that they didn't bleep it because he'll turns into it and it's so common to not use apostrophes.
ME: Do people get banned?
NOAH: Yes, you can get banned for your language. One guy said that he got banned for saying that Jesus was black. I don't know if it's true or not, though, he just went around saying that. It's true: people come up to you and say that Jesus loves you, etc. But you're not allowed to use various profanities and you can be banned for certain insults.

ME: Are there words that are common to all chat?
NOAH: Yes. brb, lol, gtg, others...
ME: Would you say that you adopted and learned Runescape dialect, or that you created it with your friends?
NOAH: My friends have words that only they say and we understand. But in general, we picked up the Runescape dialect when we got here. We started writing like they do. For example, we never use punctuation.
ME: Never?
NOAH: No periods, no apostrophes, no quotation marks. In fact, I'm annoyed when people do use it. It seems like they're trying to be smart.
ME: Can you tell me more about that?
NOAH: Well, the forums are different from the game, but in the game, the game automatically capitalizes the first letter that you type, and then, it only allows small letters after that, unless you use a period. And nobody ever uses a period.
ME: Is there anything you miss about not using punctuation?
NOAH: Yes, quotation marks. In fact, I do use them sometimes, because I really need them to communicate that it's someone else's words. I find it hard that I can't emphasize things, like make capital letters to make things strong. But I don't miss commas, apostrophes, etc. much.

ME: Do you have times when various conversations are going on at once?
NOAH: Yes, there's a place called the bank which is really more like an open stock market. Everyone is talking at once. You go there to buy what you want or sell what you want and get money. So there are lots of conversations going on at once. Some things you buy at fixed price, other things you bargain a price for. For example, Nats. People go and work hard for Nats and there are some people who try to kill nats; they're called Nat PK's. There are also Nat PK PKers. Those are people who kill Nat PK's. People have strong feelings about this because fewer Nats raises the price; also it is possible to get by these people who just hunt for people who are dealing in Nats.
ME: Sounds like you have lots of words, like Nats, PK's, etc. that are particular to Runescape in that they mean something to those of you who are there but not much to those of us on the outside.

ME: Are there any words that have disappeared, or gone out?
NOAH: Yes. For example, noisce=nice. You don't see it anymore.

ME: Do you see other languages at all?
NOAH: My friend and I use German once in a while. You see a lot of Spanish, especially in the wilderness. People use it because they don't want others to understand it.
ME: Is it fluent Spanish or fractured Spanish?
NOAH: Fluent, I think. Maybe the people out there are actually Spanish-speaking.

ME: Do they use text-language much; for example, using numbers?
NOAH: Not much. Maybe about 25% use it; they are the ones trying to be cool, being innovative, etc.
ME: And you never look up new words when you see them?
NOAH: Never. I just ask, if I don't know what it means. Also, there is a certain politeness culture. For example, you can't just say "gtg" and then disappear. You have to wait a minute or two. There is a certain time you have to let pass before you leave. You have to let them respond.
ME: Can you talk about some words that are particular to Runescape?
NOAH: Sure.

woot (sometimes spelled w00t) - Hooray!
there are variants of this one- unique, as far as I know, to Runescape. You see wootness, for example.

sniped

owned- beat, burned
extremely common. Used much more widely than just as a verb: I owned you. Also used just as an answer. A: I finished a hard quest. B: Owned. B is just answering A. There is more meaning besides just "cool" but it's kind of like that.

pawn/pwn/pwned/powned- beat, burned
of these pwn/pwning is most common. Don't know where it came from. It seems very related to owned, which is very common; maybe it's owned with an added gesture. Don't know.

By the way also common is ownage, pawnage, etc.

noob/newb
this one originally meant people who were new to the game. But it got expanded to be a general insult that people use even on people who are clearly not new to the game. My friends and I decided not to use it, because Runescape was becoming a crude place, and we didn't like that. So we stopped using it altogether.
It has these two variants: noob is more joking, while newb was the original putdown and meant it.

hop- go
mad hop- go to another level
mad hoppage, etc.

kewl/cool
these seem to be equally common variants...

shortened words

plz/pls=please. Of these plz is more common. My impression is that it is not because of sound, but because z looks cooler and because they can use z.

oh=o
ppl=people
double consonants=single,
-unless it's latte=late (can't be done)

acronyms

lol- laugh out loud
brb- be right back
gtg- got to go
rofl- rolling on the floor laughing

tyvm- thank you very much
yw- you're welcome
jj- just joshing
jk- just kidding
brt- be right there
afk- away from keyboard
afc- away from computer

lmao- laughing my a-- off
lmfao- laughing my f-- a-- off
roflmfao etc.

NOAH: Of these I hate the last three, because it's like they're putting you down.

:-) -smiley face
=/ -about to do something hard
=P -tongue out at someone
-_- -said something funny
=( -sad face

ME: How is IM different?
NOAH: For one thing, it's always one-on-one. There is a lot less in common. Rune has its own world, with an entire language, but IM has mostly abbreviations that people know.
ME: Can you talk about words that are particular to IM?
NOAH: Sure.

ttyl - talk to you later
ttfn - that's all for now

these seem to be common to all chat:

lol- laugh out loud
brb- be right back
gtg- got to go
rofl- rolling on the floor laughing
btw- by the way
otoh- on the other hand
gle- good luck everyone (from online trivia)

ME: What other online environments have chat that you are aware of?
NOAH: Another big game is World of Warcraft. But that costs $15/mo. and is definitely addictive. It definitely has its own chat language.

ME: Can you tell me a little about the process of innovation? Who makes up new words?
NOAH: Some people just seem to do more of that than others. Maybe they do it to be cool, to be on the edge. It seems that they catch on if the other people admire them and want to sound like them. For example, if they are the leader of a clan, or something, and they just have a lot of prestige.
ME: Do you think any of this is subconscious?
NOAH: Yes. People use new things and aren't even aware of it sometimes. If I wanted to make up a new word, I could. I'd just have to tell all my friends to start using it, and they would. I'm not sure if it would work or not. I've never tried it. But that's how I imagine it's done.

questions

2006-11-13T21:41:00.000-08:00

Here are some questions. I approach this as a linguist, knowing that chat and text-messaging are different and are used in different environments. I really have only experienced chat myself- I've seen and asked people about text-messaging but will have to reserve judgement on them at least until I have a cell phone.

1. chat and text-messaging seem to be taking up an increasing amount of people's energy and real-time communication. Inevitably they will take over as a primary language for some, much as spoken dialect is more common in many people's daily lives than formal written English. Spoken English is clearly seen as the source of written English; however, with chat, written English can be seen as the source of chat and text-messaging, with all abbreviations relying on users' knowledge of the formal version from which it springs. OK, now presumably some people are starting with chat, but not learning the formal English? Presumably some people are beginning to live in chat so much that they lose sight of formal as a separate entity? I'm curious about what begins to happen to people who are doing this.

2. There are chat dialects, but they are not geographical. They are more like jargon, where people in certain environments become free to make certain abbreviations partly because they need and use them so much. What kinds of chat dialects are there? Can they be, or are they being, documented?

3. Certain chat words, lol, are finding their way into mainstream speech and writing (writing more often) - already. lol is as far as I can tell a pioneer- easily recognizable for its own reasons, I presume. afk, cya, l8r is one from text-messaging I assume. Do chat and texting mix? Is there code-switching? How much and where? I assume that myspace & facebook would be good places to start.

4. My students do chatting and texting in their own languages...now I'm really curious about that. Presumably they have the same cell phone I'd get if were to go out and get one. I know they're sitting at the same kind of computer half the time yet also have access now to their own fonts. So what does chatting in Korean look like? Japanese? Chinese? Arabic? Texting in each?

5. Just as driving in a place with lots of small cars changes your perception of driving, chatting quickly and with smaller words changes your communication: your style, your perception, your diction, your ability to manage different conversations at once...what else? Who is looking into this?

6. I limit my son to 3 hours a day of an online game where he chats as he plays. Clearly he's a fluent typist and flings around chat terms that I don't recognize- in a sense he knows another language and speaks it more than he does formal written English. But is it bad for him? It's clearly good for his typing. And I'm kind of a blog junkie myself, so I have to keep an open mind. But I'm not one to say we have a universal capacity or innate language mechanism...I'd say, we're all in a canoe, and the rapids are picking up a little.

The world is changing. I'm a'get an IM account, n chat w/folks f i can.

first post

2006-11-13T14:37:00.000-08:00

it is my contention that chat and text-messaging, which are similar in some ways, are going to change the way we live our lives, and the way we think. In fact, I'm sure they already have. Some of this is due to the language itself- in the same way having everyone drive smaller cars or SUV's changes the way we conceive of driving. Some of this also is due to the way discourse goes while using these.

I don't know much about it. This weblog is my attempt to try and get at what it does. The weblog will be in standard English, or something like it- that's all I know. But it will refer to chat, and text messaging, and all the dialects that they contain, with an attempt to understand them better, and to understand where this is going. Have anything to add? Comments are welcome.